Rule Update Mirodoll banned from DoA | updates in post #2 for September 2018

I didn't mean you did anything of the sort. I'm sorry to have confused you with my unclear wording. The "Dollshe Rhythmos" part refers to 70cm male body only.

 

I'm a bit confused.... so the company is banned but some of the previous existing sculpts are not? Some photos may be removed that are older and therefore those are also banned? I'm just trying to understand what is okay to post or not to post. No photos of Mirodolls anymore or dolls that are already in homes are okay except for a newer released and now removed female body? I'm so confused at this point about what is happening here exactly. I would hate for someone to post a photo of a doll that was recommended to them here, then find themselves as a user banned..... that would be very, very terrible.

I'm not really upset or anything but I do know that a whole lot of us have found friends from the hobby or our dolls are transitional objects which hold a lot of emotions. I also love that artists keep working and it's great when someone can make something and share it with everyone else an hopefully have a bit of extra funds come to them from their efforts. This is all very, very confusing. As I understand, there are some sculpts that are banned from certain companies when an error of judgement happened. So is that what the spoiler list is for?

 

@mollym well here's how it stands: the five bodies/dolls listed in the post are banned from DoA, as well as all future releases from Mirodoll*. (Older photos featuring those five banned dolls may be removed. Users would of course not get in trouble for having posted those pics at the time. As for if someone accidentally posts one in the future, they would likely have their photo removed and be informed of their mistake, rather than banned. I think. o-o) All other heads and bodies made by Mirodoll are fine to post on DoA.

*This all-future-dolls part could change because, as stated in the OP post, "The mod team is willing to rescind Mirodoll's ban in the future, as long as certain criteria are met" (in other words Mirodoll would no longer be banned, just those handful of dolls.) By looking into the sculpt's origins and removing the copied bodies from sale, it appears they are currently trying to meet that criteria, so...we'll see.

 

Saddened by this but at least Mirodoll have immediately gone mea culpa when called out I suppose... Not that they'd have been likely to do so without any prompting.

I admit that on several levels I'm rather annoyed by the handling of the situation, I'll not attempt to weigh in on the defense/indefensible issue itself since Mirodoll have held up their hands and sort-of apologised... But, well suffice it to say that the years-long lack of a decision on this means that I now effectively own a recast. One that, due to the info on DOA at the time, was purchased from what I'd been led to believe was a reputable company. I'm even more annoyed with myself since I didn't spot the similarities and the Dollstown 18F body has been on my 'to buy' list forever. However, since I managed to dig up a physical side-by-side shot I'm slightly relieved to see that people who actually had both bodies in hand at a doll meet were none the wiser too.

I do feel it's more than a little disengenuous to still be taking their ad money whilst proclaiming about this issue to all and sundry though!

 

Yes, and I would like a definite decision because I do like their Orlando sculpt. Maybe I can get an answer here though. This banning is a result of similar bodies. The head sculpts are not in question? I also recall many people saying that "no one would bother to recast a Miro". Is that the head or bodies? I don't get this. I obviously have gotten into an extremely expensive and very dodgy hobby. So much for "Art".

 

I'm not convinced Miro's statement is an admission of guilt more so it's an attempt at damage limitation. A lot of companies with half a brain would do this just to avoid controversy. it's easier to just say "sorry!" and remove the product than go through the huge hassle of proving your innocence. It's the simpler option. They know DOA is the biggest community and they know DOA could break them, so damage limitation is their best option here.
I can also quite believe they didn't realize because why would they? you hire someone, you trust them and if you don't know much about 3d modelling you just assume they're doing it right.

But I agree with what someone else said. At what point does reference become tracing? Where is the line between inspiration and direct plagiarism? Do we have solid proof these things are actually recast or 3d scanned or were they molded from scratch using references perhaps, in places, a little too closely?
I also don't quite understand why you would take the basic body shape and copy that, but not also take some of the engineering to make a better body. I mean, so many of their sculpts have absolutely crap joints and really amateur engineering. If you're gonna copy something to make a better product, why wouldn't you look at the jointing systems too?
(Does the new 1/4 body have a better jointing system and one that's closer to the iple ones? Because the 70cm body sure as heck doesn't)

Still this does set a precedent and means a great number of other bodies need to suddenly be looked at with more scrutiny.

It's really sad though, because it removes a budget option often suggested to newbies. It also means that suddenly there's a lot more doubt for everyone. Can we trust recommendations? Just because people say they're legit, are they really? Who else has been doing this and flying under the radar? Eugh. Terrible, just terrible.

 

Oh my bad, my part must’ve only been the “hideously misshapen bodies” quote.

Anyway, I have full faith that going forward, Miro will clean themselves up, just like Dollzone, Dollmore and any other company approved on this website and be in good standing again.

 

I think this proves the vital need for progress pictures. As a new sculptor, I’m gonna photograph every step of my body sculpting, as with the heads, from when it’s merely a masking tape covered core. Human bodies do come in limited configurations, especially when aiming for a certain aesthetic, however the recast issue has been well known for ages and every company and sculptor should know that these back up photos/3D files in various stages should be kept.

I’ll admit, I liked Mirodoll for being cheap and a different aesthetic to Resinsoul, but I agree with those who say that putting it down to coincidence is not enough in these cases. I’ve not studied every bjd body out there, there’s a chance my sculpt will look similar to something that already exists, but there will be photos available to prove hand sculpting and I would never work from another bjd as reference - human references are better. If the bodies do line up too well, then the verdict may be damning: even the same artist won’t get exactly the same proportions unless they take measurements with calipers etc. Even an ‘inspired’ cast won’t match the inspiration 95%+ unless measurements were taken: in which case it is a copy.

Now, as it seems they’re blaming a sculptor, the case will inevitably be reviewed by mods. If the moderators decide to allow them again, I’ve no doubt it’ll be under scrutiny that the future sculpts be evidenced during creation.

It’s a shame for those of us that own them, there will be a tarnished name even on the older sculpts when they were fully allowed. It does say something that at least they’ve admitted it and removed them from sale but whether or not a second chance will be allowed is entirely down to the moderators.

The worry is also where we draw the line with other similar sculpts: people spend a lot of money on these, and like to share them here. If other ($400+) bodies face bans too, there’s a serious concern about how that affects collectors who deliberately didn’t buy recasts but are still tarnished or have dolls banned from sharing.

In short, I’m in two minds... I defer to mods on this one.

 

I’d to clarify that as far as I am concerned, my issue isn’t with banning companies that have copied other people’s works. Obviously, not. I don’t think most who expressed discontent was trying to justify Mirodoll. Or defend them.

But they’re not the only ones whose bodies or sculpts line up “almost perfectly” with someone else’s and I feel like if future investigations of others will be handled in the same “guilty until proven innocent” manner, we are going to end with lots of banned companies and/or sculpts. Lots of confusion and problems if those same companies prove themselves and get reinstated.

I don’t think overlapping pictures for comparison and using it as proof of copying is substantial evidence, but it does serve as a guide to open the discussion of whether or not it’s a copy.

But...

What’s going to happen when people who have always suspected Company A from copying Company B bring up their overlapped pictures to the mods and ask for equal investigation and punishment of Company A?

If that and a long deliberation is all it takes to ban something, is there going to be a doll left that’s on topic while companies scramble to get evidence of their authenticity? What happens to the community who suddenly finds their beloved legit dolls turned out to be no better than recasts? My worry is for the collectors who own this brand, who trusted they were an affordable alternative for hybrids/full dolls, as recommended by users on DoA and advertisements found on DoA.

That’s why I say things like this need to be handled better. There needs to be more communication before action.

Throwing people who collect Mirodoll bodies/dolls into turmoil, then asking the company to meet criteria for reinstatement seems like a backward and messy route.

I really hope all further reports of a suspected copying/recast incident is handled a lot better.

 

And a lateral question pops up. CoA's are for the head sculpt only?

 

@dollsoflace , I think that this can happen to any company, not just Mirodoll. As the Mods stated in the first post, if any member wants to question any company's sculpt, they can post something in the Ask the Mods forum. And it will be reviewed. Some years ago, we also questioned Ariadoll, and then Ariadoll merged with Switch, and the body in question is still being sold there. Nothing has been done, and we who reported learns to live with it. O.o It's sad for Mirodoll owners, yes, but if Mirodoll doesn't come forward with evidences of legitimate sculpting processes, doesn't it mean that the blame should be put on Mirodoll instead of DoA? If they can prove that their designs are original then the owners won't have to go into "turmoil"... Why not ask Mirodoll for evidences instead of posting on DoA and trying to change the Mods' decision? I don't think it will change anything unless Mirodoll comes forward to clear things... As for other companies, if any other designs can be questioned, then go for it. The Mods have stated that anyone can do it to any company, of course with proofs.

 

Yea, I'm also worried there will be a guilty-by-association effect on both the Mirodoll bodies that are still allowed and the artist dolls that used Mirodoll as a casting service. I have a very old doll that is allowed on DOA but was made by an artist that had a "too closely inspired by another company's sculpt" scandal on a different doll that was made almost a decade after mine and have routinely been harassed on Facebook for owning her. Like there have been multiple times I've had total strangers pick her out of the background of pictures that weren't even of my dolls and start posting or sending me really nasty messages calling me a criminal for purchasing from that artist and demanding that I destroy my doll and provide them with proof that I had destroyed it even though the sculpt I have was closely reviewed and cleared by DOA when the scandal hit and was purchased years before there were any issues with the artist. I even had one girl try to get me banned from a local doll group because she knew I owned this doll even though by that point I had deleted all of the pictures with her in it/started hiding the fact that I own her and even though that group was using DOA's standards for which dolls were allowed (she didn't succeed at kicking me out but I left anyways because I didn't want to deal with the drama). It got to the point where I ended up moving the doll to my room at my parents house in another state so she doesn't accidentally get in anyone's pictures or seen by anyone, which is sort of sad especially since she's still considered on topic here. There are plenty of people out there who will go after someone for owning a doll by an artist/company that has had issues regardless of if that particular doll has been investigated and cleared, and it's a bit worrying because no matter what the resolution ends up being for Mirodoll, I'm sure these people will now be coming out of the woodwork for years to come.

 

This is my worry. That I’m going to be harassaed or sneered at because I own them. I was even tempted to take my hybrids off my profile until I can get new bodies for them. :’( (I had planned new bodies for them anyway, just not so soon. One of mine can’t even attempt to stand because he has one leg longer than the other)

 

Yea, ultimately I think I'm going to end up buying different bodies for my hybrids even though nothing I have is on the banned list because people are awful and I don't want to have to deal with that again. Guess I could pick up a couple of the not-banned Mirodoll heads to go with the bodies and they can join my other disgraced-by-association doll in exile at my parents place.

 

Gosh, this is so incredibly disappointing. I bought an Apollo head from them a year ago (I think I was mistakenly sent a Hector head instead, but it was like 30 bucks on sale so I can't really complain). I had hoped to purchase more from them to practice heavy modding because of their cheap price point.

I guess I can only reiterate what some people have said before: I totally understand and agree with this ban -- they seem like copies. I do hope that they were not singled out because they sell cheaper dolls than other companies, and that there will be equal attention paid to companies that might do the same thing but are more well established.

It's a bummer all around. I probably won't be posting my Hector on here at all for fear of backlash. I hope it was a sincere mistake and that Miro really cleans up their act. And I sincerely hope that no one negatively talks about those who have used Miro as a casting service -- they really aren't a part of this whole thing and it'd be a shame to see them dragged into it.

 

Moderators, what are the owners of the 70cm Girl Body supposed to do with them now? I only bought the body (just months ago) after researching and making ABSOLUTELY SURE it wasn't banned here on DOA. I take owning a legit crew seriously. It feels rather late to JUST NOW ban a body that you KNEW had been under suspicion. I thought because it wasn't banned, that it had been reviewed and cleared of suspicion. I just don't know how to move forward now. Am I to trash the body and waste over $100 dollars of what I thought was a legit purchase? I can't sell it. I can't trade it. I'm not here to defend Mirodoll, as their quality sucks, but I bought the body for a modification project and now I'm at a lose despite doing the proper research.

Edit: I can see the obviousness of the recent 3d sculptor's imitations. Even the mermaid tail they were working on is a copy of another company. My issue is the 70cm has been out for 4 YEARS already, as it was made available in 2014. If it was suspicious then, why is just now being banned?​

 

Oh, you just hit one of my biggest artistic pet peeves. A computer (and the programs on it) is just another tool you can use! It does not make the art for you! If you have no skill, there's no button in the program you're using that will create the piece for you or turn your unskilled mess into a museum worthy work. 3D printing from your own design is absolutely art, and there is absolutely no definition of art specifying that a master has to be destroyed--even for sculpting! Even in casting, most of the time the master is not destroyed. Your singular experiences do not define what is or is not considered art.

Plenty of companies use 3D sculpting to create their work these days (and as a result it may get more difficult to prove the origin of a disputed sculpt). That doesn't make them all "not artists" or "not sculptors." The sculpting programs they use are just another medium.

 

OK note the mods' words (and mods, please change the title- you're scaring people into thinking it's a FULL ban when you stated it's a partial ban)- SOME of Miro's bodies have been banned for appearing too similar to existing company dolls. Clearly Miro has some very original stuff and anything that is causing friction in this community has been removed from their sales pages, even the 70cm girl. They are back to their undisputed originals and those are FINE, folks. Hector and Apollo, Lightening and Thunder, Wind- none are being contended. Just the 70cm bodies, the new 43cm body and the new 28cm body. Don't worry about the other stuff. DO NOT TRASH your Miro stuff! $100 bucks is still $100 bucks. All but the 4 things I just mentioned are still on topic and safe.

Understand, too, that China is in the East and most of us are in the West. Believe it or not folks, mentalities ARE vastly vastly different. I had the pleasure of living in Taiwan for 2 years and the things I saw and experienced shocked me to my Western core, just as my mentalities and Western values shocked and frustrated them. Some say their removal of offending items admits to their guilt. Even the whole 'a mistake was made' by them, though, was in an effort to placate THIS forum and keep us from going completely rabid. It's the same kind of absolutely true confession you'd get from torturing someone- they had no recourse whether it was true or not. They are being bullied because of US. Maybe it's true- but if it is not, they still say it is to make us happy and keep us from doing further harm. It's not the most trustworthy confession and we all seem ready to think Miro is a criminal mastermind scheme when really, YES, from the years I and others have worked with them, they CAN be that clueless. Miro is guilty of hiring a guy who was not a sculptor but a 3D modeler who did not know dolls. They are guilty of not thoroughly checking every 43cm doll body out there for copies. So they're not totally innocent, but they're not as guilty as we seem to feel they are. My belief.

They have done what we collectively demanded and they have immediately cleaned up their act, as people say. New bodies will replace the old. The majority of Miro Doll bodies and heads (none of the heads were in question) are safe. Parade your Hectors and Apollos and Annies and Mikas- they are OK.

(shout out to @Blankqueen, girl I love you to pieces!)

 

The thing is: I’m not saying DoA mods should change their decision. ^^; I’m not asking them to reconsider because I don’t think banning anyone for copying is wrong. My problem isn’t their decision, it’s the order of things and how they went about it. And I’m not saying Mirodoll shouldn’t produce evidence or be held publicly accountable, I’m just asking why the mods couldn’t first try to talk with the company to ask them to produce their evidence or change their ways before making the decision?

“Company, we have reason to believe your body model 1,2,3,4 is a modified copy of other bodies from Company. You have X days to produce proof of originality by providing ETC. Failure to do so will result in banning your products and company from our forums as we are strictly anti-recast in any way, shape or form. We strive to support artists. We may rescind our decision to ban your products if CRITERIA is met. ETC. ETC.” <— this is something that should have happened, in my opinion, beforehand. Not after.

And then, the announcement should have been made with the final decision, having taken into account whatever they provided or complied with.

This would have saved the community a lot of confusion and stress. I mean, let’s pretend for one second that Mirodoll is able to produce evidence or admit their wrong, eliminate the copied products and publicly state they’ll do better moving forward — basically let’s say they do everything to comply with whatever the mods asked and meet the criteria again, so they can rescind the banning. Then what?

They become on topic again (except for the copied products, unless these are proven original) on the forums. That means that the strain of the current moment, which has been placed on the community, wasn’t necessary. Because through communication, the issue would have been “resolved.”

My concern is that if moving forward the mods are going to first place bans on companies that are suspected of copying, before they are given the chance to show their evidence, we are going to end up with a lot of confusion on the forums.

I’m only saying I hope the order of things could be improved for the sake of the community, not for the comfort of companies or anyone else.

 

Very well put @chalyss

 

@dollsoflace - YES! Well stated!

 

The thing is, that DoA is the definitive and matchless information provider for BJD dolls. I couldn't find much out there that didn't have reference to DoA. So while I might be dubious about this or that, where else can you really go to learn?

 

How sad all this is ! I am NOT a large collector, even thought I started with UNOA some time around 2006 (not sure) but I really feel this Chinese company is being tortured (yes it really hurts to read some comments here) while people who do not know Asian culture takes for a "confession" what is very probably just a way of lowering the huge problem DOA's decision is putting on there shoulders here BEFORE they had been questioned for what I understand, please Mod correct me if I am wrong as I would like to be wrong.
Each country has its own law, in France, even thought DOA is "private" the Company who is being bullied here could go to court for it. Because, one is innocent as long one is proved to be guilty, and here, there is no proof, only doubts and only photos used to prove the company is guilty, this is not enough at all, and the power of DOA on bjd collector choice of dolls is very important, we all know this, private forum or not, what is written here has a huge power on a company futur.
Now : because I am working on an article on "modern BJD" (BJD were invented in 1861) I have been looking lately at many photos of bjd from different companies and found that actually a LOT of artists are copying the work of the Popovy sisters (for exemple) Bodies are so much alike, heads are so much alike sometime I have to ask owners who is who as Popovy Sisters dolls have so much popularity that many artists want to make their own Popovy look alike. And I was thinking before reading this thread : why DOA who is against recasts do not do anything about all those fashion dolls for which it's so hard to decide if they are copies or only inspired. And what is the line between inspiration and copy ?
So many artists/company copied Ray Cezar, did DOA reacted to these burglaries ? or does DOA feels that those who did it were "just" inspired, no more ? (thinking right now to the Popovy's chair with spider's legs for example), but also Doll Chateau, etc. (by the way, Ray Cezar threatened an artist I know to sue him for having made his dolls looking like Ray Cezar painting).
I wonder if the Mods will react if an artist copy in some months the new heads from Resine Menagerie with a special "wig base that allow hair to grow directly from the roots". If Eli from Resine Menagerie has not patented her invention, I give the "artists" 6 months before they adopt this great invention for their own dolls.
Will DOA ban all the artists who will do this ? I would like to beleive it's a yes, but ... "who will live will know" ...

 

Also @Blankqueen — you used a part of what I said to make your point, but I’m on the same side as you are. >_>

I’m saying just about a bunch of sculpts can be overlapped and called “copies” like the ones you mentioned. I can overlap DZ x Doll Leaves, MNF x Magic Time, IH x Raccoon Doll, etc. etc. and allege the same thing about “copying.”

And this is why throwing pics on top of each other should not be considered irrefutable evidence.

If we start doing things like that and just begin suspecting everyone of copying, it will soon turn out there won’t be an on-topic doll left.

 

There are many dolls and doll companies whose bodies look almost identical, as pointed out in a prior post in this very thread with images included to boot.

Mirodoll DOES show the progress made behind their dolls on their facebook page. The dolls were not copied as far as I can tell based on the face book post. Maybe referenced, but what's wrong with that? Artist reference stuff all the time. To me it just seems like the sculptor for Mirodoll was highly inspired by the sculpts of those other companies.

In any case, I believe that DOA Mods should have spoken to the company first and asked for reference photos about their making process before outright banning them like they just have. If it turns out Mirodoll was just using as a reference, or that they do have creation pictures, then this kind of a post can cause irreparable damage to a company that may not have been trying to do anything wrong in the first place.

 

There are also trends. Trends in everything. That's when stuff starts to look similar- something is selling well and others want their own version of it. This includes perfumes, shoes, clothing, earphones, cell phones, purses, toys, dolls in general, etc. This 'copying' stuff goes on and on and on and yes it gets controversial. If it WAS a recast, that's bad. In our culture at least; not all cultures are the same and we are imposing our values on a culture that is very different. I don't agree with animal sacrifice but there are a lot of voodoo practitioners for whom is it is integral. We, in the West, snub this- but that's us, our culture. Is the animal sacrifice wrong? some would give a resounding YES! But it's a cultural base. To them, no. Now that is an extreme example, but true. We are basing our opinions off a belief system that may not be the same as another's. Is it OK for us to bully other cultures to conform to ours? You tell me. In some places, it IS OK to steal, It IS Ok to kill animals, it IS Ok to do things that are not OK for us. The world and cultures are not one size fits all. In Chinese culture, as I understand it, it is OK to be highly influenced and reference other peoples' work; after all no copyright law against it there. It is not illegal for them. To us, it's reprehensible, but that is not true of all places. Research their culture and see if they have done wrong. If its not wrong for them, but it is wrong for you, then stay true to you but don't impose your will upon others, your right and wrong.

The point is not to say that it's all right to steal; for me, it is not. But to assume it's the same the world around is arrogant and ignorant. Example: in the States you get paid for every minute of work you do. Some companies will fire you for working too long before taking a break or working through lunch, because we have laws stating the company will get in trouble for exploiting workers even if we volunteer to do it. In Taiwan, it was expected you gave free work- an hour before you logged in you were at work working. And hour after you logged off, you were at work working. 2 free hours given and the pay extremely low for what WAS paid. If you left early (earlier than one hour after punching out), you'd be asked why you did. To me, this was terrible! slave labor! Awful! But for Taiwanese, it simply WAS. It was acceptable to have the job and to keep it. You could be replaced by someone who would accept it if you didn't play ball. Again, just an example of how things can vastly differ. So let's not be too high and mighty about how our standards are best but meekly take into account we don't all run on the same rules.

But definitely, Miro should have been approached privately before this was ever brought to public. That's like the boss yelling at the employee in front of the customers. We'd be appalled at that behavior because it's not polite or right to do. Yet we are doing it. And moreover, many of us are OK with it.

 

The moderators said they have been looking into this for a while. I think they did contact Miro. And the rest is history. Did Miro take a little blame instead of denying the allegations? Maybe. It is a small shop that tries hard to accommodate their customers. One company puts out a new, larger doll, and Miro tries to be competitive and puts one out, too. But the JID head on Miro body is enormous, lol. I have that hybrid! I see no copying because they don't fit!

 

I hear a lot of about photos of sculpting progress of 1/4 body, but I can not find them anywhere on Mirodoll facebook. Can anyone share the links to said photos or photos themselve?

 

Mirodoll - link to their fb WIP pics

 

Mirodoll
This is that head sculpt, Jared, if the link works.

 

The head sculpt was just a "what would you like see? Something like this?" Their Jared was definitely not a Stallone look alike, just something realistic and mature which is a HUGE step for Miro because they've resisted doing mature for years.

 

My stance on this is one word: FINALLY. I mean, either all recasts are to be banned or none... choosing a recast from one source to be abominable and another okay is not the way to go.I could never accept how some people in one way or another are very vocal and very much against recast owners, but then go to Miro website and buy the bodies which are CLEARLY copied from Dollstown and Iple.

a little aside from the whole issue and out of pure curiosity... can you name at least a few cultures (meaning communities or societies sharing common nationality/ethnicity/religion that are not sub- or counter-cultures) where it is okay? Like... they have it imprinted in their morality that it's really, truly okay and cool to steal?

 

I'm totally sad. I was about to buy 70 and 43 cm female bodies but now the company refuses to sell ones. I hope that everything will be OK and this problem will be solved soon and I would be able to buy what I want. I see that these bodies have a lot of differences and this situation is a big misunderstanding.

 

Some of us are anti recast but had no idea about the Dollstown issue, especially if we’re newer to the hobby. I joined and looked at the DOA list of allowed companies and sculpts. Mirodoll were on there as acceptable. Since I’m interested in boy dolls, I did no research on girl bodies and didn’t come across the Dollstown issue.

Now that the situation has been made clear, that’s a different issue but you can’t question the morality of people who own pre-ban Mirodolls unless you’re sure they knew about the issue - and even then, if the mods let it go at that time then others must have accepted their judgement.

 

I was thinking of ancient Hawaiians when I wrote that- it was considered prowess, honorable, and completely acceptable to steal from non-Hawaiians. Granted, that was the warrior class and they had something to prove, but stealing is stealing. Is stealing now OK? No. They were Westernized. In the US it's ok to steal under certain circumstances, such as food for a starving baby. In many countries it's considered OK to steal, even good, if the theft is against a non-local or non-national, especially tourists/visitors. And apparently, some aspects of Chinese culture. Not saying everything is fair game, just saying there are certain items or peoples from whom it is OK to steal. Sometimes it's even honored and encouraged. Sometimes there's simply no law against taking some things but there are against taking others. Again, China. And of course some places will cut off your hands for it! The point was, we are imposing our beliefs and systems on them and degrading them for not being just like us.

 

If it's based on how the body looks (and I'm not saying it doesn't look like a copy), can ask why Impldoll is not being discussed?

 

Because their waists are /clearly/ much more slender than IH waists.

 

It is what it is. The staff here are doing their best, as they always do, and changes to this situation are more likely to come through Miro’s forward movement than peer pressure in this thread. Already, it looks like Miro is taking ownership of the issue and finding their path.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to wait it out, and in the meantime, show a bit of support for people who bought these dolls in good faith and are sad about this news. These are our community members and we want them to feel welcome, don’t we? There’s no need to be unkind to each other.

 

Hi there! 3D printing is art if you are the one that modelled the sculpt in the computer program! It takes alot of time and effort and a good eye to 3d model objects, especially human bodies. (I even went to school for 3d modeling) So the model is a digital file inside a computer. So then, I would assume, one doll is 3d printed to make the mold, and then the remaining bodies are cast in resin using that mold that was made from the 3d printed sculpt. Hopefully that sheds some light on the art of 3d printing Let me know if you have other questions

 

meanae: beautifulbizarremag: ... - somnio ergo sum

 

^^^^This^^^^
The 70cm Female Body came out in 2014, and yet was never banned DESPITE the controversy regarding it. I now own this body because I thought it was a legit doll. I would never willingly support ANY recasting/stealing. I thought, because the mods didn't ban it, that it was approved. And it was approved for the the last 4 years. I accepted the judgement of the mods and now I have a body that I don't know what to do with it. ​

 

I thought you were going to practice modification?

 

Same theory applied to justify banning Mirodoll here tho... scan/recast and slim them down and mod joints. Besides, I never said they were copying IH, yet, you knew exactly what I was talking about, so clearly, they aren't guilty free. It's not only the body, but the heads too.

My point is... it's all speculation. The difference is that Mirodoll is REALLY cheap.

 

There is definitely a cultural difference between what is considered stealing in the US and what is considered stealing in other countries, and not just within the context of dolls. I work in academia and at the beginning of the semester we have to go through in very minute detail what is and isn't considered academic dishonesty under university policy because some students from other countries (not just China or even Asian countries) have very different ideas about what is OK or not. I've had students just casually tell me that they had downloaded answer keys or obtained old assignments to check their answers because it didn't even register with them that doing so might be wrong. In their mind, being able to check their answers on homework was a normal part of learning the material and a valid strategy for making sure they got a good grade. If you didn't check your work before it got graded, it was thought of like...not doing your work completely? Not doing the best you possibly could to succeed? It wasn't like they were doing it covertly and got caught either (although I've seen a fair share of that too), a lot of the ones that I've caught it was because they were talking about it openly because it never occurred to them that it would be considered wrong. Not to say that we should be required to adapt to someone else's standards, but it's something to be aware of and in my experience a lot of problems can be averted by making it clear beforehand what level of being inspired by, checking, or referencing other work is acceptable.

 

And cheap is bad! Cheap must be punished! The mods said so. There are consequences for being cheap because it means you're doing naughty things! Or else you wouldn't be cheap! ("However, we believe their low prices are a direct result of them stealing the work other companies have done. With the recent trademark situation, the mod team feels that we cannot allow Mirodoll to continue on as they have been with no consequences." Despite recasts generally costing even twice as much.)

I don't think they necessarily /meant/ it that way, but that's what they said. Ergo, Impldoll is not cheap enough to attack. (Yes, I am getting sassy. Sorry not sorry.)

So Soom steals horns, Fairyland steals steampunk weapons (got it right that time!), Impl makes dolls clearly meant to hybrid with Iplehouse, etc etc. Seems to Be a Thing in the dolly world... on that side of the world... where they have no copyright laws.

Oh and for those wondering why DoA did not ban the 70cm girl though they had suspected her, it's because Dollstown didn't raise a stink or pursue it. That's stated in the very first post. That is neither here nor there, just an answer to some people who were wondering.

 

I was modding the body for a charcter. The mods were going to be for the purpose of giving my doll a body suited for her. There isn't much of a point in modding for hours on end a body that can no longer be used, right? ​

 

What do you mean 'can no longer be used'? Of course it can! You just can't show it off on DOA anymore. Which is a shame. But DOA is not the law- they don't get to tell you what you can and cannot have. You bought it to mod for a character, so keep doing that. All DOA gets to tell us is what can be showed off on their forum or not.

There are other places to show her off though, like Dollieh Sanctuary or Facebook.

 

I agree with you there. Impldoll, imo, is not a company I would bother with because I don't see a lot of integrity in their work. Bluntly speaking, I do believe they copy (is a more literal meaning of the word) from IH. Like you said, they charge more and draw little attention. Their dolls are a half price IH. Now, the first time I saw the 70cm girl from Mirodoll i knew it was a copy of Dollstown (a body just too unique not to be recognisable), so I stayed away from the company. It was not until recent that I learnt how cheap it really is. They've been selling more and more and ... to be honest, they can't afford to make their own dolls, produce so many different bodies and shapes and be that cheap. But i feel that if they were charging $300 for their bodies, people would not having such debate.

I wish DoA would be less biased against cheap companies (maybe they aren't, but that's how it feels to me based on this). If you are going to ban one based on perception, then ban all companies who are clearing stealing from others.

 

@dollsoflace
@charlyss

You guys rock (and whoever made fun of Iplebodies since I agree). I think the order of events could have been different and transparent to the community as an ongoing affair. That would have given Miro and the community time to react. Maybe lessened the shock going on here.

Yes, it's a fine line, but let's remember that recasting is creating a Soom and selling it as a Soom. That's different then making your legs look like a Dollstown, though I'm not saying that's right, but definitely not the same thing. While that's still huge for us, I can see where it would be less so to others. Not sure there are infinite ways to make a leg joint but definitely doll makers should be careful how "inspired" the overall gestalt is. If you're gonna make a certain joint you might not want to take the leg shape along with it. Obviously, the entire situation is nuanced as some of these Mirodoll bodies aren't exactly new and passed muster for some time. Now watch the big Miro sell off since elsewhere I'm seeing people express fear they'll never be able to get rid of their bodies. No one is paying attention to the "only these bodies" disclaimer. I think the book "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and The Madness of Crowds" talks about these things. Glad I don't have stock in Mirodoll!

Personally, I think all doll makers should be banned for ripping off Hans Bellmer.

 

I wouldn't say it unusable. It's still your doll. Even if you didn't intend to buy a modded copy, you did pay for it and you can't un-buy it. You may not be able to share the body on DoA, but that doesn't mean you cant use the body, practice mods on it or resell at a different marketplace. It's ultimately up to you and what your comfortable with.

 

oops, accidental post

 

Hmm i see some posts where the theft is being chalked up to cultural difference or implied to be more acceptable when done there, in some recent posts. Worth remembering:

—there are a number of Chinese companies who have been recasted or copied and have responded by entreating collectors not to support counterfeits, so clearly the impropriety of doll counterfeiting is known within the community
—there is a thriving Chinese collectors community of pro-artist owners, and in fact it is through those collectors’ amazing efforts that we knew about the stuff Luo tried to pull recently and companies were contacted.

....so it’s just kind of weird that people are saying the sculptor has cultural reasons to think that was s cool and okay thing to do. I think people might just have the erroneous impression copying is considered ok because it *is* the case that laws there make it harder to prosecute and shut down, but...that doesn’t equal the doll community not knowing it’s bad lol.

Just going to point out that pretty much every similar case to this one where a controversial resemblance occurred has involved more pricey companies (Leeke, Dollmore, Ariadoll....there was a pretty good writeup of controversies on Armeleia’s blog at one point, let me see if I can find it.) Also: the famously affordable Bobobie and Resinsoul, who operate at Miro’s price point and also have been around for longer, have notably never come under scrutiny by mods/of this type. Because they don’t copy.

 

I am probably going to be attacked for this, but I feel like people are missing the point by about a thousand miles, and all this finger pointing at other companies is getting ridiculous. It's not about them. Not right now.

Impldoll is obviously influenced by Iplehouse (and Soom). As are a lot of companies. Iple created the giant muscleman, it was popular. Of course other companies are going to jump on the bandwagon. It happens.
Does impldoll look like Iplehouse? Sure, at a glance. Are they nearly identical? No. Musculature is different. Joints are WAY different. Silhouettes are different. (I own both, I look a them often, they are not the same.) Influence is not recasting.

I see Leekeworld thrown around in this thread too -- the DD doll they were accused of copying was a 1/6 doll, I believe. Leeke's is 1/4. They weren't using digital 3D technology, they didn't steal, they sculpted that doll by hand. Even though it was obviously influenced by (and you could even say copied from) the DD doll, it was not a recast.

What Miro is being accused of is not influence. They are being accused of actually taking someone else's work, modding it and reselling it --> On the listed bodies. That's very different than being influenced by. Or even copying. If you see a faceup and copy it, it still won't be 100% identical to the original. It's still going to be different. Taking someone else's doll, sanding the muscles off and changing the joints does not make it ok to cast and sell as their own (If that is true, but they don't seem to be denying that's what they did). Taking someone's art off DA and running it through a PS filter doesn't give you the right to sell it yourself. Conventions will ban you for that. This is the same thing - scanning a doll via 3D tech and changing it (barely.) so it can be sold somewhere else is stealing. It's the same as a recast (only it's a reprint technically?), since this is how dolls sculpted in a 3D program have their molds made to cast in resin.

Looking at someone's art, thinking "ooh, that's cool, I want to do something like that!!" and then doing something similar yourself, is not stealing. It's just not. Ask any artist who they were influenced by.

The Screaming and yelling, accusations and finger-pointing happening in this thread are uncalled for and unhelpful.

Am I upset about it? Sure, I own Miro bodies too. They are a great inexpensive option. If Mirodoll is truly a reputable company, they will move on from this, prove they're never going to let it happen again, become unbanned and life can move on. As it's been pointed out an unnecessary amount of times, other companies have done the same thing and survived.

 

I think Impldoll catered more than copied. They made heads and bodies to be paired successfully with IH as the latter is very hard to properly hybrid. And since IH engineering is not the best, a lot of people don't like the bodies. Enter Impldoll. It may be a fine line, but they seemed to fill a niche, IMO. They catered to those who wanted IH hybrids, so they're similar but not copies.

I know of Korean companies that have entreated people not to copy, but not Chinese companies. That means little more than I just don't know of them, not that it doesn't exist.

 

While it’s not about them of course, other companies are being brought up mostly to assure people that Miro isn’t the only company to face (and survive) this kind of situation, since many seem not to believe it, stating that they’re being targeted over price or may permanently be affected. Examples are the best way to make that point that most of us could think of ^^;

 

Which is what they are already doing. I think the dolls left on their site are very much their own without question. The bodies in question can no longer be bought and will be replaced. They will be sculpted off original artwork I will supply them. Hopefully that fixes this whole mess. Unless it goes deeper.

 

"Influence is not recasting."

Miro is not recasting either, it is copying. Leeke was copying too back then. So recasting is not the issue here.

Influence is very different from emulating style. When you are 'influenced' by one artist and you do work that is very similar in aesthetic and style, that is basically copying, which for me, is what Impldoll does. That is my opinion and everyone is entitle of theirs, of course.

 

How many different ways can there possibly be to sculpt a generic female body? At some point or another they all start to look similar imo....

 

I know. I'm starting to worry my original art work for the sculpts won't be original enough. *sighs* Not sure how to combat that. But I will not be looking at any dolls while I draw!

 

On “cheap”, it’s relative, but China is the world’s factory because it’s cheap. It has a vast labor force that is exploited. (I worked on a case in which parties dickered over 1 US cent’s increase in contract price per pair for the manufacture of tennis shoes, where it would’ve made a difference in the workers’ lives… ☹) According to this, https:// tradingeconomics.com/china/minimum-wages, the highest average minimum wage is 2420 cyn per year. With the lowest wages in manufacturing at 597 cyn/year. That’s 377.02 USD and 93.01 USD respectively; divided by average 2080 working hours (not including “free” hours), that’s $0.18 and $0.04 per hour… “Cheap” seems more a tragedy of reality than “crime”…

Example of accepted “stealing”... sticking to art, pop art is all about appropriation: https:// www.moma.org/learn/moma_learning/themes/pop-art/appropriation Andy Warhol made a career of it.
Richard Prince is still doing it: https:// www.highsnobiety.com/2016/09/05/richard-prince-artist/
I can think of other instances, too, but will refrain XD

Anyway, to me, the Miro msd body fits with the style of the very classically shaped mermaid tail that they also showed (April 22 post) on facebook. Meanwhile both Miro and Iplehouse bodies also reminded me of Sadol's body albeit different size (not sure which was made first?) (tbh Miro's 70cm male and female bodies at first reminded me of ancient Egyptian figures)

Are ppl copying popovy? Or has everyone in fact been copying Egon Schiele's emaciated/elongated, sexually/emotionally open figurative style? Some of those joints in the ancient roman articulated dolls look awfully familiar, too. Because the latter's copyright has expired we can copy at will? Seems the line is no longer at “recasting”, then where is it drawn?

I don't own any of the now banned Miro bodies, and unlike my 10 years younger self and Dollzone dolls (which were castigated for being from a dubious company and cheaper than Volks, at a time when right-of-publicity-violating minimees were a rage ), I won’t worry/feel bad about what people might say about the “legal” Miro bodies I do have. That said, while obviously not required here, perhaps some clarity and general assurance of fairness of the decision process would be nice? Especially for those who have detrimentally relied on the forum's recommendations and are now affected by its ex post facto rules? Also for those of us making dolls or doll-like figures for public consumption?