Scam on Ebay: seller "brandshopping-2008"

I'm done... I guess no one here can see my point. That's ok. I will go back to lurking again.

 

We don't have sufficient evidence? Oh my God! You really need to go back and read this whole thread again.

I dare that seller to come sign up here and post in their own defence. We all know it's not going to happen. BJDs are not meant for children to fling around and step on and throw in the tub to play with when they take a bath. Wherea the price and what you can do with them and how you handle them. I think you just cannot accept the prices and how high the prices get that's why you say these things. Did you not just say they are not necessity? Then why are you complaining about not being able to get limiteds or coming across dolls that are out of stock? You obviously still really want them and just can't get them so you are upset about it. You can't always BUY every single doll you want that is life.

what's that got to do with anything we are saying about this seller? If this seller is using a photo of a doll from Luts or DOD or any other companies....we'll still be saying the same thing we are saying now. This thread will still exist. Again it has been mentioned MANY times that you can go for a doll that goes for a different price range from a legitimate SOURCE and legal company. Why do you keep bringing up Volks anyway? You think we would not be upset if it's not a Volks doll photo they stole because we prefer Volks more than other? Think again.

And yes having your work stolen from you is life. But it still does not make what they are doing RIGHT. Yes there is a market for everyone. But illegal market is still illegal market.

 

And do you know what the normal price range is for an original sculpt? How long do you think it takes?


I would suggest that the knockoff market has buyers who want and can't get the originals at what they are being sold for.


Yes, the knock-off market is a place where people can buy copied or stolen designs for less.


Buyer beware, again if not represented as something its not, it shouldn't be a problem.


Except that auction 270297388859 and 270297392176 are misrepresentations.

In any of those cases, supporters of the doll arts (consumers) suffer, and I am a firm believer in not $$hi77ing where I eat.


Then don't. But isn't it also a bit criminal to pay several hundreds to thousands for a DOLL? I love my dolls don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day, they are dolls. They aren't feeding my children or making me money on the shelf. I wouldn't sell mine, but there are those who do and make a good profit.

No one is entitled to own everything they want. Artwork is a luxury item, not a basic human need. You do not have to pay thousands to have a doll. You may have to pay $1000s for a particular, rare, limited doll. It costs $1000s because it is rare and limited.


There are, and many many times I have fallen in love with a doll only to find invariably its out of stock, not for sale anymore or not in a certain buying period. Its ridiculous. Its ridiculous to only sell on Fridays or during a certain week or be out of stock one day after the doll is posted. How can a business stay in business if it has not product to sell?

They stay in business because they are selling a limited edition of a piece of art and people pay that much money because they want that limited edition. Volks has been in the BJD business for 10 years. I think their business plan has worked out for them. I personally do not care for the whole limited edition thing, but that is how doll companies are able to cover their overhead while they design new product.


So realistically,the only choices I have to get something I actually want are the secondary market, or ebay where I can find something similar to what I want, in stock and at a price I can afford. I realize there are some cheaper alternatives out there but not in sculpts I actually love.

If you really love those sculpts, then you would save your money, watch the companies for their limited editions, and then support the artists who are making those sculpts instead of supporting the people who are making money off of another person's talent and life's work.


Its not right, I agree stealing photos is not right. Stealing exact sculpts and recasting is not right. Replicas do have a place in the market, like it or not.


I don't know what the solution is however, other than what's being done here. You have informed the companies, you have banned these sellers from DOA and you have warned potential buyers. What more can you do.

Well we can try to advocate not giving money to art thieves; however, we cannot stop anyone from buying bootleg products. If that is where you want to spend your money that is your choice but I doubt your justification will garner very much sympathy here because DoA does not tolerate art forgery, and that is one more part of the solution.

 

The seller is coming with more 'accurate' pictures, which is slightly better that than using other doll companies/artists' pictures. One or two auctions still need to be changed though.

This thread just serve as a warning to those who may think that they are getting exactly what the pics are showing. To be honest, they look nothing like the first few ebay auction pics.

Guess it's saving the heartache for others who have no problem in buying bootleg products (those who think they are getting volks/luts/etc duplicates and then realised that they didn't get what they thought they are getting). It is no horsey matter.

I for one, am still doubtful of their intentions as they didn't start off on the right foot by using other doll brand models in their auctions.

Copyright for products... is everywhere... Bring a bootleg LV wallet to the LV shop and I guaranteed that they will call the police and fine you on the spot (I have seen it happen to some unfortunate lady). Even for dolls, Volks has its copyrights stated (see their website) and other doll companies too (Remember Forever doll and Volks' legal issues etc.. Forever doll became forever gone -_-).

If people have no problemo with their moral selfs to buy these products, that's them. This thread warns the other group who knows otherwise

 

staring at it, i've seen 5 before. i don't know where but i've seen it before.

4 i think is the same.

it's 3 i have an issue with the eyes are way way off in the second picture. way smaller. the nose is different too. and the mouth is smaller.

 

Please don't get frustrated and offended, cicidia. It's not that we don't see your point, it's just that many people disagree with it and this thread wasn't created for the purpose of hashing out a number of debate topics. It was posted to warn people of a potential scammer.

Here are are a few threads in the debate forum which may be of interest:

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224196 Do you think limited dolls should be restocked by companies?

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219494 The consequences of copied dolls

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170283 Why do people charge so much?

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157142 When is it OK to accuse a company of copying?

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200915 Elitism in the BJD world

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239736 Why do people charge so much for limiteds?


It appears that you've never had hundreds if not thousands of $$$ of your hard earned money stolen by an ebay of YJ scammer.

One of the best things about this community is we watch each other's backs and if we smell a rat, we try to warn as many people as possible. Sometimes it's all gut instict and if an honest seller is harmed by our vigilence then consider it collateral damage.

brandshopping_2008 exhibits all the signs of a dishonest seller so I don't think we need to worry too much about their reputation.

 

These people are scammers... and they would not come to this forum to defend themselves even if invited; they will not even post pictures of the heads on the bodies to prove that they are legitimate sellers. If they exist, these dolls are copies... though the likelihood of actually receiving anything at all is very, very slim.

DoA takes a hard-line on bootlegging; we don't have any warm fuzzies at all about "stealing their livelihood" or any such tripe. Bootleggers hurt artists. Period.

I am notifying anyone who is considering buying bootlegged dolls - these dolls and any other known bootlegs are banned on DoA. Not "off-topic," but BANNED. They cannot be posted here in any capacity. If you decide to purchase one and post it here, you may be risking your gallery access.

As an additional note, if you are found owning a bootleg doll, it may be grounds for the moderators to consider whether you will be allowed to continue to use the Marketplaces. We cannot risk having people selling bootlegs as the real deal.

 

Thanks Girlsofair for pointing Cicada to the debate forums where this sort of thing belongs. You beat me to it!

Back to the task at hand, are they bootlegging DZ now too? I guess it's a little more believable at that price but still obvious as a scam of some sort.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-BJD-46CM-MA...0851QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262?

ETA: I just reported the Megu listing for the millionth time. Maybe if we keep at it they might take it down. It makes me ill that it's still up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270297388859

 

the yellow skin toned boy is a feng i'm pretty sure. http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-BJD-46CM-MA...0851QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262? the top one.
or it's one from that set of 3 molds. the angle makes it hard to tell.

 

Very well said!

ETA: And I am really getting tired of the "ELITISM" cry when people have standards for how they operate within a hobby. Some of this is law, some are general rules and part of it is simple ethics.

 

I'm going to reiterate my stance on the hobby once again for this thread, in response to cicidia's argument that it is "criminal" for companies to set prices above the means of the "average person":

This is a luxury hobby. We're up there with all the other eccentrics who buy antique furniture, vintage model railways, pleasure yachts, first-edition 19th century literature... It's not really meant for the "average person". That being said, a lot of the people in this board and in this hobby have the income of an "average person" and we work around our own financial situations to participate in this hobby. That is our choice. We work and we save and to accommodate the financial strain of this hobby.

The doll companies are not obligated to take into consideration things like cost of living, bills, kids, debts, etc. when it comes to pricing their dolls. It is up to us to make it work for our own situation. Nobody is entitled to a fancy doll. The companies are, however, entitled to their own industry standards and ethics.

 

Just saw this auction - can anyone identify this sculpt? I'm sorry if I missed this earlier in the discussion, and hope I can post it correctly

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...o=CRX&its=S%2BI%2BSS&itu=ISS%2BUCI%2BSI&otn=4

and I just wanted to say thank you for all the people who warned me when I first came here - I was a bit put off at first, but now I understand that you were all looking out for my best interest with all the questionable sorts out there, and I have NEVER had a bad dealing with anyone in the doll community - however, at this point I don't think that I will EVER buy another doll unless it is new and from either the original company like Luts or Volks, or from reputable and licensed dealers like Contemporary Art Dolls or Denver Dolls.

 

I'm not sure who that sculpt is...Possibly a Mythdoll? Looks quite similar to Dream of Doll's Bee A but I don't think it's her.

ETA: The Q&A for that doll has someone asking to buy it on layaway...What a shame there's no way to warn them that they are most likely putting down a layaway on absolutely nothing. Ebay should get their act together.

 

I think the folks here (Thank you whitewings) are doing the best thing by emailing noobs like me and telling them to expect disappointment if they go through with the auction, and direct them to the forum here.
I am usually a passivist, and believe there are no coincidences. But, I will try to educate myself and I will be very vocal about this sort of stuff from now on.
I spent a lot of time looking at sculpts and trying to decide if the beautiful (and stolen) pictures from ??shall we doll?? was original or perhaps a modified sculpt. I feel really stupid about bidding on the original auction with the beautiful modified Lucas pictured there.
Live and learn, but I am still beating myself.

 

What's this company's connection with the "Coco Tribe" animal type dolls? I see they're selling some of them too.

 

You don't need to beat yourself up about not recognizing Lucas... people who have been around the doll community for a while can spot a sculpt or recognize an artist mod because they have seen a lot of doll/sites.

Even still, there are so many doll sculpts now, that it is difficult to know every one, even if you do spend time on galleries and sites. I do not recognize the new sculpts that the seller has listed...they could be original sculpts from an oem that the seller purchased, or bootleg sculpts that the seller knowingly or unknowingly purchased from an oem company.

I have noticed that a percentage of Chinese sellers use company or other people's pictures to advertise their products for sale...maybe it is acceptable to do that in their country, but when they come to an international eBay or start an international site of their own, they need to change their advertising methods because to the rest of the world, stolen pictures=scammer.

If the dealer is honest, they will learn that they need to change their pictures to ones that they have taken themselves, of the actual product they are selling. If they are a scammer, they will probably disappear (unfortunately, most of the time after taking someone's money!)

Brandshopping may be selling 1/3 or 1/4 resin bjd, but when you are shopping for a doll, the only thing you have to go by is a picture and description. I think it is too risky to send someone $200-300 when they don't have a real picture of the item or a clear description of what you will be getting, but that is where 'n00bs' can be easily taken in...you purchase a doll that you think will look like Volks Megu (you don't know it is a Megu cuz you are a n00b, you just think the doll is beautiful), but when you open the box, you get a mystery sculpt with a cheesy face-up. Yes you received a doll...no, it looks nothing like the picture. Or, you get a bootleg sculpt which is pointed out to you after you take your doll to a meet...now the joy of your doll is ruined and you were ripped off.

There are many honest sellers out there, but you do need to be wary when choosing who to purchase from. Fortunately, this community is pretty good at policing auctions and sales (although sometimes people are too quick to jump to conclusions ). In this seller's case, I am not sure exactly what is going on, but I would advise avoiding them until it is settled (and they stop using stolen pictures of doll that they do not have to sell).

 

those Q&A questions were asked when the modified Lucas from the artist ??shall we doll?? were up - I doubt they will feel the same now that new pictures are up.

 

You are right. I have learned a lot just spiraling through the information here. I did research on this sculpt, looking for details (the bridge of the nose, detail of the eyes, etc), but did not see the difference. There is the danger of the stolen pictures. Being aware of the potential for bad people out there, and after much angst, I bid on the doll. Being a seamstress and cobbler, I sometimes sell items cheap to let folks know the quality of my work. But, then, we all base our judgements of others based on how we perceive ourselves and what we ourselves would or would not do. I wanted to give this person a chance to prove themselves. If it had been a new sculpt or original work, I would have been vindicated. But, finally, someone posted the original artists' work, and I realized that I am niave to think that.
I did go through with the purchase, knowing that either I will be singing praise or - like whitewings - emailing all bidders that they are wasting their $$$$. I want to keep this post alive and in the forefront so that others will be aware.

 

yup, that is true - the questions are from before they edited the listing changing bopth the title anf the photos. At the time they were calling "their" doll Sunny. Now the photo is of the head/shoulders only, is a completely different sculpt that looks nothing like Lucas/Sunny. They have also removed the AOD body pics, so now there is not any indication of what the body they are selling is (if it even exists).

So while they may have removed the stolen faceup photos, they now seem to be in the bait-and-switch game. Several of their listings have had the artists volks head photos replaced by other mystery pics - none of which are anywhere near as nice looking. And just becasue no one has been able to identify the new pics, that does not means it's their own doll. Who knows what a buyer might actually receive at this point!

 

I can see where your frustrations are coming from and can agree to some of them. I wouldn't call it "overcharging" per se however, "Overpriced" maybe, Brand Name, definitely. What we have here is "brand naming" where something like a pair if jeans costs more based on the name alone. Which does yes, lead to knockoffs. Do I think they are wrong to charge that much? No, not really, but it does give me the ability to laugh at people who I think paid too much for something.

As for the "artists love" I hear. It is nothing. To the amateurs in the custom BJD gallery it might be love, but to these companies, it isn't so much art as it's money. These sculptor's do it for the money, and the company themselves. If BJDs were not profitable, they would not be making them, and we would not see a lot of new companies making them. Which then ties back into the reason why there are so many...money...it's the bottom line.
Which is why I am not put off so much about bootlegs (which is the proper term for these if they are recasts.) The people at Volks will still eat, as they charge enough for their product and have a steady following. They may raise prices and claim it's due to "pirating" and such, however they would not have made that sale in the first place due to the simple cost alone.

I do think it's wrong for this 'brandshopping' to be stealing photos and not have an actual photo of the product to show. That is fairly shady. As for the alleged copying itself, if it is a copy, I too am of the mindset that some of these dolls ARE overpriced due to nothing but the brand name association, and don't mind a bit of the criminal to "stick it to the man."

Of course such thoughts negate me as an "Actual Doll Lover" to the masses that believe these to be works of love rather than works of profit. The fact that I have somewhat of a "bootlegger" thinking negates me in the eyes of everyone else.

 

but how is stealing aod's bodies "sticking it to the man" ? those bodies are CHEAP.

volks aside - lately many copies have been of the lower priced doll companies.

look, a doll selling for 200$ really only gets about 50$ profit. yes. 50$. there are a TON of costs that go into making a doll (and i do NOT mean the sculpting process)

examples :
costs of development that need to be allocated
costs of equipment
costs of molding materials
costs of safety materials (ie gas masks and gloves)
costs of casting materials (resin, mixing supplies, cleaning supplies)
costs of assembly (elastic, s hooks)
if your doll is going with wig or eyes or both - need to include those
if your doll is going with face up - need to include those costs
costs of utilities
costs of website or physical store location (this is probably a big cost on volks who have many stores in different countries and with employees that have to be paid and what not)
taxes (again, something that's probably a lot on volks' part since they are a corporation/company)
if you have a logo or brand name that needs to be protected and maintained....


if you don't believe me, again i say go look in the artist ABJD section and read for yourself the costs people list for casting dolls.

and if i ever find some one knocking off my dolls i would be pissed as hell because they ARE artwork! a lot of time and money goes into making a doll and you're saying it's okay to steal that effort because they're brand name? that's just stupid! it is NOT all about money.

i really think if you think it's okay to knock off a bjd from a company - you should first go and try and make one yourself. then maybe you'll understand a bit better about the costs.

 

oh man, this thing seems to be getting out of hand. but heres the thing, i think the sculptors "do" care about the work that they put into creating their dolls, and don't want them copied cheaply and sold by others. read the letter from Bimong about the creation of his Dandelion doll. he almost didn't want to mass produce it at all, but decided instead to share her with others that cared.
as to buying a doll that i believed to be authentic, only to find out later that i had received a fake copy.....i would be really angry.
if this dealer is misrepresenting the product that you are buying, that is outright fraud and is wrong. if this dealer is selling dolls that are unauthorized, that is also fraud.
ebay is supposed to discourage the sale of "fake" merchandise, such as brand name high end clothing and electronics. they should stand by that rule in this case as well.

 

to m133x and cicada,

why do you say that the artists aren't making these for love?

A number of my friends and acquaintances make their living thru their art. And some years they barely scrape by - some years they sell really well, make OOAK figures that sell for $2000+ each, 2 or 3 a month.... other years, their inspiration dries up, or they develop arthritis and can't sculpt, or what they make goes out of fashion, and they are living on the edge of disaster the whole time.

These are not "amateurs in the Custom forum" these are respected artists who chose to make their living with their art.

You try it for awhile - figure out how to eat while you are spending 6 months + to develop your bjd with no income coming in. Then come back and diss the artists who join the companies for a little security.

 

Many sculptors were making dolls for themselves before they joined or started the doll companies we see today. I don't see why "love" and "profit" can't go hand in hand.


As for new dolls: I don't recognize the heads (though "Xizi" and "Sunny"'s replacement seem familiar), but they are still using stolen photos for the "Miza" doll (and possibly stolen AOD bodies? Most of the new photos for the 1/3 size dolls are head shots or fully clothed so it's hard to tell what they look like. They do have a very defined collarbone.).

 

Exactly! Don't support bootleggers, support the company which fairly and legally does provide a cheap alternative. AoD are not big brand at all; but they are popular because they sell dolls cheaply which people like the look of. There's a difference between popular and big brand.

No one here can speak directly for the sculptors, but as far as most dolls on the market go, I don't think something with such beauty and detail can be created without any 'love' (I'd prefer to call it passion.) There are dolls on the market (I'm thinking of one new-ish company which hasn't sold many dolls) which look like they are created solely for profit, not for the artist's passion for sculpting. And they look different. You can tell the difference in the finished product.

To me, it's totally worth paying a lot extra for something that time, dediation and passion went into creating. You can see and feel the difference. You don't have to be told where the doll came from for this, the quality speaks for itself.

Of course, this is all presuming Brandshopping actually has a product to send, and I'm really doubting he has.

 

Woah, woah, woah. How is art theft - which is exactly what it is, not to mention it's in violation of copyright and intellectual property laws, not to mention wrong ethics-wise - suddenly okay because of "brand names?"

Art is not cheap, and it's not just sculpting that's expensive. As an illustrator AND a student, I burn through an amazing amount of art supplies in an incredibly short about of time. If I added up how much money I've invested in time, blood sweat and tears, supplies and tools, and someone gave me that money back, I'd be able to buy all the dolls in the world. And I wouldn't buy a single bootleg.

If I found out someone that I had previously done a commission for had taken that work of mine, made some low-resolution scans, and sold prints for cheaper while claiming all of my hard work as their own, I would be crushed. I'm even loathe to upload any of my new work because art theft has become so common. Heck, I've had it happen to me before I was even good at what I do and looking back on it, it hurts just as much as it did when I first found out someone had made off with my hard work.

And yes, I do need money to eat so it's important that people know that work is mine, but the fact of the matter is that it's also all of my love and passion translated onto paper, canvas, what have you.

Art theft is wrong, no matter how you look at it or what you call it.

 

Thanks I bid on a cheap knock-off too just before I joined DoA, fortunately by the time it arrived (5 1/2 weeks of pestering) I discovered it was a fake through DoA, I reported it the second it arrived and got not only my money back but gave the poor thing a burial (he became cute landfill).... No sense in sending it back and having them sell it again (Lollidoll)

FYI the pics are still supet on the auctions and as yet no new feedback. Also there are no auctions only buy it now sales.... so its impossible to warn the buyer.

 

I wanted to follow up as I promised (and I don't take promises lightly). I have had good contact from the seller, and pictures of a doll that is not exactly anything that I can identify, but very similar to the doll that was pictured, with the exception that the nose, nose bridge, and lip sculpt are a bit different. I haven't been able to identify any specific sculpt.
In the pictures she appears to be painted well, and is quite winsome, on the body that was shown in the auction (AOD?). I am quite taken with the pictures, and have a tracking number that works at http://www.shippingsidekick.com. I feel much better about my purchase.
I do not condone the use of other artists pics, but I can see where someone would use the pics from the source of the body (AOD in this case). I have seen many auctions on ebay using either the pics or with the link to various companies actual pictures.
This seller has been up front with me, and I will post pics of the doll and what I receive when she gets here - I was very upset when I found the original thread, but feel a bit better now.
Please don't flame me too badly - I am only learning now, and think that everyone deserves a chance to redeem or improve themselves ( me in particular!).

 

Out of interest, can you link to which auction you won? Or at least save the pictures and text now so that you have a comparison when the doll arrives?

You should do this because if ebay does remove the listing, you will have no comparison pictures.

 

I thought you were able to retract your bid? Is there anything Ebay can do to help you?

 

Honey I feel bad for you especially since this is your first one, DoA has banned any doll from this seller so pictures cannot be posted here but please do post a link for us and we will help you out as best we can. When it arrives chances are its a fake, dont leave feedback for them untill this is established, its hard but its truly the right thing to do, even if it is gorgeous to look at. Go for broke and get Ebay to stop them from selling fakes and get your money back, its moraly reprehensible that they get away with it!!

At least if it IS a bootlegged blatant copy you can have them legitemately taken OFF ebay and not risk your membership here by doing the right thing...

Please see the quote below from Armelia:

 

Once the doll arrives, if you can prove it's a fake you should be able to make a claim against the seller and get your money back. Ebay only really acts on bootlegged items once in hand.

I would suggest contacting Dennis: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/member.php?u=10429
To check if you have bought a recast of one of his dolls. The style of the doll you linked earlier (I'm presuming that's the one you accidentally bid on) looks very similar to the style of dolls he sells and has sold in the past.

He's probably your best lead,and if he contacts Ebay to say it's a copy of his doll, you should be able to get your money back.

Good luck!

 

pamdora, please do post a photo of the doll you receive and also the photo that was in the auction for comparison.
it seems several of us here have tried to get this seller to send up pics of the actual dolls without luck.

Although I'm not really all that optimistic about this, I do hope that the doll you receive is a lovely original sculpt and that the seller's use of japanese artists photos was just an unfortunate mistake. (ok, yeah, I don't really believe that, but... it would be nice if there is a good ending to this somehow)

 

Gosh, a lot to respond to, but I'll try . . . please forgive my unfamiliarity with the technology

mhdolls - I will post pictures in my picturetrail album and provide a link - I don't want to get in trouble by posting it here.

Babytarragon - that is why I decided to follow through on the auction - having been an expert witness, I know I have to use first hand information rather than what others have said. Thank you for the link to Dennis - I hope he can help once the doll arrives.
I could not cancel the bid because the seller and auctions were removed shortly after that (imagine how I felt at that point) and I had already paid, being a prompt ebayer with good feedback (so much for that).
The new auctions show another doll, and the copied pictures were removed.
I did save the screen into a document, but can't seem to paste it here.

I have 45 days with paypal to file a complaint and contest the payment. I did save the original pictures from the auction, but will not post them here - I believe they are shown elsewhere in this thread, and the doll was identified as a modified Volks Lucas done by an artist I am not familiar with - she is at this site in the custom section. Go to the 'old' pictures and she is the first row of photos: http://milkxxtea.gozaru.jp/.
The pictures I have received look nothing like this artist's work or this sculpt.

whitewings - Thank you for all your help and advice with this. This doll is not my first bjd, (I have Lishe, which I purchased directly from eluts.com. With the utmost respect, I have seen a number of CP look-alikes being produced by 'legitimate' companies' and these companies have not been completely banned - I keep seeing Lishe and El, but they are not Lishe and El I am sure there are circumstances that I am not aware of that allow for this).
As for the consequences, I would hope that I wouldn't be banned because I'm trying to do the right thing here - someone needed to follow through, get the item in hand, determine the actual facts, and do something about this, although I am on shakey ground until I know more, even if I do forfeit the cash. In any case, unless there is some way to identify the sculpt or the body as either bootleg or stolen, I am not sure that there is much I can do. I am not an expert on bootleg or copyright laws, but hope that my actions are perceived as taken in good faith. All things happen for a reason, and there are no coincidences. Until I get the doll and can determine first hand the facts of the matter - in other words, whether it is a copy, bootleg, or etc., I cannot act further. I am hoping that folks here can assist me with this - off site, of course.
I posted about this because I wanted to let others know what was happening, as I promised, and to alert others, and take action if needed. I will not post more about it other than to provide links to pictures, and will not post the doll here or more about her.
Besides, my Selina is coming and I am very excited about her and her pouty lips.

But, in case I am banned, I have learned a lot here and appreciate the atmosphere of sharing and all the help I have received already. Thank you all for replying, and maybe a few of you know me from the other doll boards and can keep all apprised of what goes down. I do know the seller is a member - or knows a member - that reads this board.
Wish me luck, and I hope to be around tomorrow.

 

Hmm, are you thinking of the MiniFee versions of Lishe and El? They are the only other ones that I know of, and they are not look-alikes--CP is also responsible for the MiniFee/MNF versions of the dolls, but while the Delf versions are considered joint projects with Luts and are currently only sold through the Luts site, CP has taken personal charge of the MiniFee and sells them through their own site, FairyLand.
If you mean some other dolls, could you give me a link please?


About the doll you are waiting for--I'm sure you won't be banned just for wanting to get to the truth of the matter. If the doll comes and is unquestionably a copy, then any pics you post will be proof of that and everyone will know to stay far away from this seller. If the doll is in fact an original sculpt, pics will show that as well. Posting pics of a doll as part of an attempt to determine its legitimacy is not a bannable offense, AFAIK--it would just be posting pics of the doll in the gallery and going, "LYKOMG see my new DOLLLZ I dun care if its a copy!!1!!!1111" that would bad. XD

 

Pamdora,
I do not think you will be banned from DoA for purchasing this doll by accident (pictures of the doll will not be allowed if it is a bootleg)... in fact, this thread will help to determine whether this seller is a bootlegger or just a photo stealer. When you receive your doll, you photos can help other members to identify the doll as a bootleg or an original sculpt. The pictures in the ebay listings are hard to see (except for the good photos that were swiped from elsewhere) so it will be very helpful to see better, larger pictures with different angles of the sculpt.

Important thing:
Keep a close watch on the date of payment... Paypal has a time limit for filing, and if you do not receive a doll, or you receive one that is radically different than the photos, you want to be sure to file on time (I think you may need to file with eBay and Paypal separately? I know they are the same company, but they have separate offices).

 

Thank you, Strangeangels - I would appreciate any information - I have worn out all the Volks reference pages I can find, and don't see anything that looks like the pictures sent - there are similarities in the shape of the chin (like Lucas, or perhaps Masha or Sasha, or some of the Volks School heads), but the nose and lips are definitely different from anything documented. But, I don't think I have privileges to post pics here - I will wait till she gets here and then post a link to pictures.
I have changed my settings so that I can receive personal mails. Folks can contact me for a link to the comparison pics. Please, no flame mail or harassment - I have already spent way too much time worrying about this, crying, and feeling very stupid. However, my dear husband said that it could be a good thing if I got banned - I might spend less money on dolls!
In any case, I don't see how this seller can redeem themselves in any case, due to the picture theft. I do hope they sent any papers, receipts, etc. I hate to think the worst of someone. Us niave folks tend to judge others by what we ourselves are capable of - regardless of how many times we are proven wrong. I still hope it works out for the best, but if I get banned, so be it. I had hoped to be an active member here, but I can still come as a guest.
Like water off a ducks back. There are more important things to worry about. Thank you for your reply.

 

The moderators don't follow every company or read every thread on DoA, so it's always possible that we may miss things. If you see a sculpt and have these sorts of concerns, please contact the moderators. I am not aware of any Lishe or El knockoffs, aside from those produced by Lolidoll. All Lolidolls are banned.

Unfortunately, unless a doll is a direct copy or is otherwise beyond a doubt copied, we may not be able to ban it without a potential defamation claim.

With regard to banned dolls, we do not allow people to post links to sellers or photos of the bootlegged dolls unless it is to warn others of possible scams or determine if a doll is a copy. Any inquiries on how to purchase bootlegs are deleted immediately. However, posting for informational/cautionary purposes with full disclosure is all right... but posting the doll in the gallery to show it off, or attempting to sell it in the Marketplaces (even with full disclosure) is strictly prohibited.

So in short, the moderators aren't going to ban you for a mistake. There is also a difference between a gallery ban, a marketplace ban, and a full-forum ban... a full-forum ban was never mentioned. But this is a situation where you will need to respect that a bootlegged doll is not welcome on DoA. You already seem to, so I'm not worried at all!

 

Thank you for the information, Armeleia. I tried to read all the rules before diving into this thread, and have gone back to reread them again to make sure I haven't been a blatant offender.
As to the potential 'look alikes', I have been researching at reference sites and other companies for the original of the sculpt in the auction, as well as the sculpt in the pictures sent to me of the doll, so I may have come across some of the banned companies in my searching (in reference to the CP dolls).

I am sorry to have already gotten the attention of the moderators. I am already a marked woman I wanted to be up front about it. Thank you.

 

LOL, a big scarlet B for Bootlegger! Seriously though, don't worry about it - it was a mistake and I doubt anyone would fault you for that. You've already been very respectful of the forum rules by saying you won't be posting the doll in the Galleries if it is indeed a copy.

Best of luck with everything!

 

Pamdora, my heart goes out to you - it really does and I hope that the doll you get turns out to be real and not a bootlegged copy. It would be a real shame for you to have to go through all of this and not be able to show off your new dolly to everyone. I hope that when you post the pictures you can be given good news, I await to see them like everyone else.
Tell your husband there is plenty more BJD's out there for you to buy, lol (hint hint christmas pressies.............)

If the doll is a copy would you not be able to claim against the seller by reporting to ebay/paypal that the doll recieved was a counterfeir/bootlegged copy and maybe get your money back? ive had no experience in buying any bjd doll off ebay (all i ever bought off there was little apple dolls, lol)

*hugs*

 

I'm pretty sure you can still get a refund from Paypal when an auction is removed. You may want to look into this for future reference (or somebody else here can confirm).

 

Wow. The capacity of some people to justify the wrong just so they'd make out without having to feel guilty about getting a KNOCK-OFF.

As a general comment about the market and economy: makers mark up their prices often times in attempt to have the money to pour into their next project. "Brand names" charge higher because it's incentive for them to keep coming out with better quality.

Sure there are obviously cheaper ways to create a larger number of a product and mass market them, but that pushes for qualities to go even lower and eventually, to keep a competitive price, they're just putting crap into their products because there's only so much dollars a company can shave off a price tag before either cutting corners or digging into their own pocket.

Honestly, all companies are in business to make a profit -whether their product be cheap or not. The ones that keep bringing their prices down and down -you better bet somewhere they're not keeping to standards of manufacturing.

How do you think we ended up with lead paint and pesticides in our imports?

Going back on the eBay thing, though: AoD -or ANY China-owned company for that matter -is NOT going to do anything about "bootleg" listings on eBay of their product.

Keep in mind that China is a hybrid Communist society. Their copyright law mandates that as long as a modification -even the slightest -has been made to a product, it is now treated as a brand new conception and can be copyrighted unto itself as a new thing.

That is to say, if "brandshopping-2008" bought an AoD body, sanded a pinky so it was shorter, then recast the body -they are now allowed to call it their own, according to China's (where they reside) copyright laws.

 

That's really interesting... do you have a source for that? (Not trying to be a smartass, I'm just curious and I'd like to read more).

 

"Article 12: Where a work is created by adaptation, translation, annotation or arrangement of a preexisting work, the copyright in the work thus created shall be enjoyed by the adapter, translator, annotator or arranger, Provided that the exercise of such copyright shall not prejudice the copyright in the original work."

Link here: http://www.chinalawyers.com/laws-regulations/copyright-law-of-the-peoples-republic-of-china.html

 

I've heard of similar things. One example I was told was that China has it's own Disneyland, but feels that they do not have to pay any royalties or admit any trademark or copyright infringement because they've made slight changes to the characters' costumes or names.

 

Yup. They have the same thing going on with Sanrio's Hello Kitty, too. They made a Hello Kitty that's essentially entirely the same, except theirs has a mouth. Sales of such product, under China's copyright laws, thereby do not need to pay Sanrio a royalty for use of their image because it is now its entirely new copyrighted work.

To keep it on topic: I'm sure AoD, as a company established in China, is familiar with their own copyright laws. So even if they wanted to say something to another Chinese company ripping off their molds, there's really no legal recourse they can take.

 

They updated photos:
http://cgi.ebay.com/58cm-1-3-BJD-Do...3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:3|39:1|240:1318

A boy's head that doesn't fit on the body right.

I guess it does prove they have a doll to hand, it's just pretty monstrous.

 

but doesn't it also prove that they are bootlegs? since that's clearly a volks head sculpt (either school a or lucas or f16) but they're claiming it as their own? or am i misunderstanding things (as it seems these auctions have changed so many times ><;;; )

 

OMFG YUUUUUUUCCCK!!!!

Thanks for the link, btw. XD;;

Geezus, you think they wanna sell knock-off, they'd do a better job of doctoring it so it's not so blatantly obvious.

 

well... the head sure doesn't fit the body at all.
And still no way to tell if it's a real or recast AOD body.

Can anyone tell if the head is a recast or if it's a copied re-sculpt? or give a link to a real Volks head that it is a re-cast of (shown w/ with no wig)?
I agree it's still a bit Lucas-like, but somehow it all looks kinda off to me: strange eyes too big even for volks, funny around the end of the nose, odd head shape, ....

 

i think it's possibly a modded lucas or something...

here is a picture when i was selling my lucas :


i thought i had a profile shot (because the mouth is definitely lucas) but i can't seem to find one...

 

i vote bad paint job, eye's made bigger, and a nose job worse than mj.

 

Sorry, I thought that was already proven. Does anyone still have doubt?

 

i was confused because there were links previous to heads that i did not know of, plus AOD said something about not being sure if they were bootlegs or not - i could be completely wrong. i seem to be on a roll these last few days with being wrong

 

what was proven is they they used photos without permission. this is the first we've seen of the real doll.

on the bodies, AOD themselves said that they had no way of knowing if they bought the bodies from a genuine AOD seller to use for hybrids - they did not claim they were bootlegs or copies. So it's still unknown if the bodies are real AOD or recasts. To complicate things further, it's possible they are under-the-table (stolen) production from AOD's molds at the same factory, as that is what appears to be happening in another thread with another seller.

on the heads, they kept changing the photos in their listings. This is the 3rd photo shown for this doll. They have stopped using the custom artists' photos and now are showing (allegedly) their own heads. It has yet to be determined if they are recasts or copied sculpts. The most recent pics definitely looks like Lucas overall, but with significant differences in the nose and forehead, so it's maybe not a direct re-cast?

here's a side by side with darkmothflame's Lucas. I tried to eliminate backgropund and adjusted so they are same orientation and size but the tilt is slightly different so I'm not sure if that might make the foreheads more the same or not. The nose looks modded - as kuraiangels said, a BAD nose job!

http://www.thedollpage.com/marketplace/members/mhardy/brandshopping.JPG

 

Ugh,the feet don't even match the body...
Same for the head cap. -_-

 

As far as the feet are concerned, I think it's just bad lighting. Because the torso and arms are the same color as the feet, but the area mid-way down the thigh to the ankle seems faded.