Replacement for W&N Brush Cleaner?

WHAT? I didn't know they changed the formula! Thank god I have an almost full old bottle left.

Looking at reviews on Blick, someone recommended Bristle Magic as a replacement. Unfortunately I can't seem to find a list of ingredients to see how it compares to W&N's. Looking at the safety data sheets for both, they definitely seem different. But the description of how Bristle Magic works sounds a lot like W&N. Could be worth a shot, but with vigorous testing on junk pieces of resin first! I'm concerned that it's amber colored.

 

Soap?? They put soap in it? That's so odd considering that it seemed to work fine as it was. I wonder if it's like a cost cutting thing..If they were going to change anything, it would be nice to have done something about the smell of it but keeping it's original formula

 

I actually had a really interesting exchange with a W&N rep this morning about this very thing! Here's the email I received:



It looks like they might try and bring back the old formula in some capacity and specifically cited doll artists as a reason! Might be something to keep an eye out for. I haven't been able to find anything that works as well for removing faceups!

 

In Europe, we've had the useless option for a while, I was really confused when I bought a bottle, thinking it would do wonders and it was... just soap. I think it might be a safety requirement thing, although I don't remember it being great with the intended use of cleaning brushes either.

I use acetone free nail polish remover which works quite well. I have no comparison because I never got to try the "good" brush cleaner, though.

 

90%+ Rubbing alcohol is your bff honestly, it melts that shit off and doesn't really have downsides

 

I wish that was true, but it’s not. Just like it does to your hands, isopropyl alcohol will dry out resin, and repeated or extended usage can and will cause it to become brittle. I own and have worked on dolls with alcohol damage to their heads—it’s normal for thin areas like eyelids to begin cracking or flaking after repeated alcohol exposure. ALL faceup removal options are potentially damaging and need to be treated as such.

 

This is what I switched to after running out of the good W&N and it just doesn't work as well for me! I always end up with residue anyway and end up having to do multiple rounds of treatment whereas with W&N I felt like stuff got clean almost right away. I also feel like alcohol dries up a little too fast for me whereas the old W&N had more of an oily consistency that stayed active until I washed it off (and it did come off easily with soap and water).

Keeping my fingers crossed that W&N is able to bring back their solvent-based cleaner in some capacity because to me it's just beyond compare!

 

Please do write to them and let them know the impact that stuff has on our entire hobby and many others, if you are able. I'm sure your word would mean a lot if you tell them how you introduced it here and how much of a mainstay it has been for us.
Aah this is such worrying news, I really hope they bring back the "old" version!!

 

During the faceup panel at LA Dolpa, Volks faceup artists showed a new product called Eco Wash that seemed to work well to remove faceups. It is also plant based!

I haven't used it personally, but it seems it could be a potential alternative? Made with dolls in mind! It should be available on both the US and international sites, however, I am unsure how shipping this product works across borders.

ZM Paint Remover eco 200ml

 

Wow, that's awesome! I actually met Ann a few times when I worked in an art store and she was our W&N rep! Did you contact her specifically or a generic W&N support email address? I'm tempted to email her too!

Very cool, didn't know about this! I love their sealant AND their acrylic paint thinner, so I would trust that this is good. They should record a demo to put online!

 

Huh, how is that supposed to work?
There is no moisture to be dried out in cured polyurethane plastic. (In it's resin form it's super sensitive to moisture, but that's quite a different story.)
It is true that solvents can damage polyurethane over time, but as far as I know it has less to do with repeated exposure and more to to with extended exposure (and it's not due to water or any other fluid leaving the plastic, but a partial breakdown of the material) and this is why alcohol may cause damage where stronger solvents do not.
Both (old formula) W&N and acetone, the two other popular options, will cause that damage to polyurethane much faster than Isopropanol when looking only at length of exposure. And in that lies the main disadvantage of the alcohol, because it is less efficient at dissolving the sealant as well, and so requires much longer exposure. Even though it may sound backwards to a beginner, the less aggressive option may be more likely to cause damage in reality. Actual damage will still only happen with prolonged exposure, though. So, as usual, it's a case of knowing your materials and not use them interchangeably without understanding them.

Most professional face up artists I've talked to use pure acetone for that very reason. It works so fast that it's a matter of seconds exposure and that simply isn't enough for the solvent to penetrate the polyurethane. It really does appear to be the best option as long as it is handled properly.
And it matches my own experience as well. I have pieces that I must have painted and wiped twenty times or more, without any damage. In fact, the only time in all my years in the hobby that I've had any damage to a doll part because of solvents, was a head that had been sealed by it's previous owner, using a sealant notorious for being difficult to remove. It simply took too long from start to finish. Even then, the damage is very minor.

Oh, and you are supposed to wear gloves, when using strong solvents, do that and drying out your hands will not be a problem either.
Very good ventilation or a proper mask for the fumes is also a good idea. Please don't use things that can potentially harm you or the people and animals around you without taking the proper precautions.

 

I think you’re oversimplifying what it means for something to become dry/brittle. Urethane resins contain plenty of plasticizers that dry out and become fragile over time, and alcohol, like all other solvents, accelerates this process. There are probably people with a more scientific background who could explain the exact chemistry in detailed words; I’m just a doll maker and customizer who paints a bunch of dolls and casts my own at home. I experiment a lot and my dolls definitely weren’t left to soak—their damage was from regular old faceup removal. Regardless of language, though, the end result is the same. When the plasticizers dry out and/or break down, the end result is a crumbly doll.

And yes, wearing gloves is definitely the way to handle faceup removal. My comment about alcohol drying out skin was more that I’m pretty sure everyone has experienced dry hands from sanitizer, or dehydrated skin after cleaning an injury with alcohol. It’s a pretty common life experience… alcohol dries stuff out!

 

Except that hard polyurethane doesn't contain plasticizers, as far as I know. The soft types do, but they are not used for strung dolls. I'm no chemist and there may be a language barrier as well, but physics don't care what language you speak. Unless I am mistaken, the solvents actually change the molecular structure of the polyurethane, breaking down connections, is doesn't remove moisture and I've never heard the word "dry" applied to something that way before, nor have I ever seen anyone suggesting that it's interchangeable with "brittle" before. Could you perhaps link to some language source so I could learn the proper use of the word in english, because I sure can't find any that agree with you. I am willing to learn.
And what happens as polyurethane ages is a process of oxidization, if I understand things correctly. A very different process than drying out.
I also cast dolls at home, btw. That is no guarantee for understanding the chemistry behind it, but it does make it incredibly important to be able to handle the language around it, as to not accidentally put yourself at risk for being misinformed about the meaning of words.

And the way solvents dry your skin out is by dissolving the oils in your skin and then the moisture in your skin, no longer held by the oils, escapes as the solvent evaporates. That is a very different process than plastic breaking down.

 

Oh, that's so cool! I actually reached her by sending a help ticket on their website, and she was the one who replied to me. You should definitely send her an email!

 

Virtually all plastics contain plasticizers, including polyurethane resins. They don’t make it stretchy, but it is what makes them resilient. If you have ever seen a doll’s fingers flex slightly instead of snapping, that’s because of the plasticizers As the plasticizers that strengthen the polymer bonds wear out, the resin becomes more brittle.

One thing we often see in plastics that are referred to as “dried out” in the US (at least where I am from) is a faded or ashy look, as well as brittleness. If you google “dried out plastic” you’ll probably find a lot of info from automotive hobbyists in particular who have to combat this a lot more than we do. Merriam-Webster offers this explanation of the term “dry up” which may help explain what I mean: “2 : to wither or die through gradual loss of vitality”

A loss of vitality (durability) in the resin is exactly what I’m talking about here. I hope that helps clarify.

 

I just read through this full thread and am so sad to hear this! Thank you for trying it out so promptly and getting back to us.

Here's to hoping W&N brings back the old type, maybe as an 'art solvent' or something...

 

Just wanted to pop in and say that I purchased a bottle of this and just had a chance to try removing a faceup with it! It has a very similar oily consistency to the original W&N, which helps it stay active longer on the resin than, say, alcohol or acetone. It also smelled really similar to the old W&N to me. The directions on the bottle recommended soaking the piece in the solvent for a bit, so I did that before scrubbing with a magic eraser and a soft bristle brush like I normally do. It took a little bit of elbow grease but overall worked very similar to the original W&N--there was still some residue left in the crevices of the head that I used a bit of acetone to remove at the very end. I think that this formula seems like a comparable replacement to the original W&N and I'll probably be using it as my go-to faceup removal solvent unless I find something better or W&N brings back their old formula!