Would still buy a doll if the artist required a contract?

half the appeal is to be able to make dolls look however we want; a lot of artists hope that their work will be valued in its original condition, but it's up to the buyer what they want to do with it; otherwise you're not really selling, just permanently renting .__.

 

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but the artist who would require a no-modifications contract for anyone who bought their dolls is the same one who was most vocal on here about mods being desecration and sacrilege and all that.

 

Honestly, it sounds a bit ridiculous of her. The entire hobby is built around customizing your doll and making it your own. I remember hearing about an artist who would also paint your doll but you didn't get any input on it, at all. I even thought THAT was a bit much. I'd be staying clear of her and her dolls.

 

Exactly! Art isn't complete without someone to View It. If it's GOOD, it will speak to people, and they will speak back!

 

A contract like that is utterly ridiculous. Are they really intending on going around policing who does and doesn't mod their dolls? I agree that fear of recast and the like is, of course, reasonable. But persistently denying purchasers the right to modify your work even slightly? That's too restricting. As many have said prior, this hobby is about customization. Taking a set doll and seeing what you can do with it. Everyone has a unique doll in some way, shape or form. No two dolls are alike, most likely! So the restriction of such creativity, in this hobby overflowing with it, is downright criminal. I wouldn't purchase a doll with a soul-binding contract like that.

 

To me as a doll-owner who has modded, hybrided and customized all of her dolls , a contract like that seems more than idiotic. The artist would also have a hard time stalking her customers to make sure they're not being naughty. But maybe it will also be part of the contract that you have to report back to the artist every month or so to make sure the doll is still in pristine condition …?
One would think that an artist would like to see what people are making of their doll, what becomes of the clean slates they sold.

However - as a marketing trick an outrageous contract like that might even work.
It has already started working. We're discussing this unknown artist although we probably haven't seen any of their dolls yet. We're getting curious who this artist might be, and once they're releasing their omninous doll with the hilarious contract attached we'll go: "Oh! That's the one!" Instant fame.
Most people won't buy a doll from this artist, but some will, if they like the doll enough. A lot of doll owners don't mod their dolls or do anything with them. Why should they care? And some also know that the artist will probably never track down their activities anyway, so they'll buy the doll. Plus, we don't act rational when buying a doll we love. We go to all sorts of lengths to get it, even sign a contract. No huge sales for the artist maybe, but a few limited copies to start with. And no individual mods, so still with the artist's name written all over it. The owners will feel real special because their dolls are so rare. And because it's rare and hard to get and even connected to some sort of sacrifice and story (signing the contract), more people will begin to like these dolls. Time for the artist to do a rerelease or come up with a new mold …
(That doesn't mean that I want to encourage such kind of contract or approve of it.)
I only hope that the artist in question doesn't exist or at least doesn't come up with something great …


(I actually know a company that came up with a contract similar to this. Not a doll company, but a maker of musical instruments. They became not only famous but a "cult")

 

Absolutely not. I would not buy a doll like this even if I had zero intention of doing anything outside the artists wishes. I also believe this is akin to other things companies are doing to control their products after they have been sold. I believe this will eventually be illegal. A consumer has the right to do what they want with a product after they have purchased it.

 

Yeah I definitely wouldn't buy a doll with such a rule tbh I'm not interest in modding any dolls I may get in the future, because I don't have that much creativity or talent to do so. But I still wouldn't be buying from this artist because honestly, I wouldn't want to support them? They seem controlling and like they wouldn't be pleasant to do business with. Also I'm sure they would not be able to keep track of all her dolls to make sure they're not getting modded??

 

Honestly I would feel a little bit unsafe, but if I really liked the sculpt then i would really would not care that much to be honest.

 

Yeah, no, see I'm the type that would purchase one of the dolls for the specific purpose of hybriding and/or modding the hell out of it. I don't normally even hybrid or mod dolls, but I'd be willing to make an exception. Kind of a "What are you REALLY gonna do about it?" toward the artist.

If there's one thing I hate, it's being told what to do, especially with the property I pay a crapton of money for. Heh.

 

I am also the same. I don't know how to do much else mod wise except pop a head off and put it onto another body. But you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be first in line to dip contract dolly in a dye bath.

Though given how pricey BJD's are, I'm more likely to buy from a company that doesn't think their products still belong to them once their in my hands. Like, I'd take that money and see what crazy doll Resinsoul could make for me. (Four armed centaur with two heads maybe?)

 

Considering that I want to make specific characters, hybridization is mandatory for my dolls. So, if I found a doll like this? No matter how much I wanted it, I could not buy it.
I'm also not a fan of being told what I can and cannot do with something I own.

~Evan

 

I would not buy a doll with that many rules attached. The point of owning dolls is that they bring us joy. It feels like owning this particular doll, you would have to be very careful and would almost feel like you had an eye in the sky watching how you treat your doll. I dont care how limited a doll is, once I buy it, its mine. I can modify, take apart, customize however I feel. If all that is legally taken away from me, the doll looses all appeal.

 

I'd run not walk away from someone who insists on a contract. She needs to chill and learn to be inspired by the creative vision of the buyers (if any) of her dolls. Who knows? Maybe her next inspiration could be the David of the dollworld?

 

I think such a contract shows a bit of misunderstanding of what BJD are about, aka, modifications. There are some types of dolls that are usually bought to be left as they are, like special edition barbies, or art dolls, or figurines.
In these, I would understand the desire for a little control and for wanting to sell them to people who would leave them intact, because that's what the customer culture usually is (there are people who customise barbies, even "rare" ones, but I feel they are not the majority of the collectors?)
On the other hand, BJD really are aimed at modification, and encourage it even at a basic level with eyes and wigs. Someone who wants their work to be left untouched should market at another crowd, or they're up for disappointment.
With this said: no, I would not buy a doll if I had to sign that contract. Customisation is what I enjoy, so I leave untouched dolls to others.

 

I gotten into a similar situation on a non-topic doll, I was told that I couldn't sell it or do anything to it in case I want to sell her, because she wanted first option to buy it back. Anyway, it can be a nasty deal for the owner, it's not worth the hassle.

 

That's ridiculous. But not only that, I highly doubt such a thing would be enforceable. Typically for breach of contract you have to prove some sort of damages to the original person. Mostly those would be monetary related. The artist selling these dolls would not be damaged in any way whatsoever by a person choosing to mod and/or hybridize the doll. Not only that, but typically civil suits like this have to be filed in the local area that the person who is being sued is in. I don't see this artist traveling around to various countries/states/cities to file a law suit.

 

Yeah, it was stupid of me to enter into this deal. At first, she sent me e-mails asking how's her baby doing, I didn't know what she was talking about, then it dawned on me that she was speaking about the doll. I sent her pictures of it, then she got sideways because I put a new dress on her. She wanted her back, I told her that she can buy it back, at 5 times the amount I paid for it. I paid 2500.00 plus shipping. Needless, to say it ended badly. So with that I say as a warning DON'T DO IT!!!

 

If I wanted the doll badly then yes I would agree to the contract but I would not stick to it

I will block and live my life with my new cool doll

I don't care about the contract and they can't get to me so good luck suing me from half way across the world haha

Contracts are very hard to force if it's something like personal property doll I think

They got their money they have no right to tell me what I can do with what I buy

Hard to think this exist I am surprise by some of reply here

 

That sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. If I buy a doll, it's my property and I am free to do with it as I please. Honestly, she's just shooting herself in the foot and alienating possible customers.

 

I understand wanting to maintain artist integrity but the beauty of this hobby seems to be the freedom (within reason) and customization of these beautiful dolls. As long as the person always credits the original maker/artist, it should be all good.

However, perhaps if it is a very limited, and special, doll (say 20-50 or less) then I would understand more. In the vinyl toy world a lot of artists customize vinyl toys and you buy it as is - you do not customize that art piece yourself unless you want to purchase a blank one but usually that isn't always for sale or available.

 

I personally would not do business with that artist if they had such stipulations with their dolls. I personally got into the hobby for the freedom it offers with customizing your doll to your tastes. I'd also hate feeling like I had a doll that looked like every other doll made by that artist. It wouldn't feel as special or personal to me.

 

For this particular case, yes, I would still by a doll from this artist agreeing to all her terms if I really like her work. All my dolls are in their original accessories, they are full set dolls in box with papers. Some still have original hot glued eyes. I only have 1 hybrid - Olivia Morgan, Volks head and Sadol body. When sold, they will be sold as full sets with no splits. Olivia came to me as a head and will leave as a head.

I totally understand this artist’s terms and conditions and why she requires a contract. I am not willing to explain in this forum my reasons for agreeing with those terms. However, what I can say is that for non BJDs, especially vintage/antique dolls, we are not to modify, repaint, split, reroot hair, or throw away the old clothes. However, this is the BJD hobby, so the rules do not apply although I’ve applied the rules on my dolls. I am open to custom faceup if the original work got damaged or not to my liking. But generally, I buy a doll in full set if I like every aspect of it. I will not mod or split afterwards.

It also depends on the dolls, my resin boys team guard their original boxes and accessories gelously, all of them are Volks loyalists. Only Olivia is a hybrid, she could care less about loyalty to her maker as long as she looks beautiful. she wants Iplehouse body with either large or glamour bust, serious modding is required for her head to go on the body. I cannot do it but I am open to the idea.

 

Interesting. I didn't think I'd see anyone agree with her, especially since she's not offering limited fullsets but rather blank heads. A little disappointing that you don't want to explain why since I'd be interested in hearing the other side(non-customization contract side) which there doesn't seem to be much of at the moment but to each their own I guess.

 

I don't plan to customize but I would have a hard time agreeing to a contract like that. For one thing it seems unpleasant and if I'm going to spend this kind of money on a doll, I really want to have a good experience and not think of someone being unpleasant every time I look at the doll. I have a high stress job and this is my retail therapy - if the artist is unpleasant to me it's not therapy. My favorite art and custom jewelry pieces are from artists who were really amazing to work with and I think about them every time I look at the art or wear the piece of jewelry. I also wouldn't want to be so limited in case I did decide to customize eventually.

 

"In this particular case"...I still do not know what special doll and artist this is all about. And why she did not simply choose another medium of doll, but a BJD, which is created to be changed and customized to its owner' wishes and dreams. If you are happy to leave the doll in the state she is in, that is fine. But what if you have to sell this doll, because you need the money due to circumstances beyond your control? And the next owner does not want that look or even just the eyes or wig the doll is wearing?

We are not to this or that - this is similarly ridiculuos to me as to mourn over a d BJD's joints. If you generally do not like them (sure there are better or worse looking joints), get yourself a statue. Period.

If you want to understand the exception in this particular case, then please explain the situation.

 

It is an interesting concept. I would not buy a doll with such a contract - in fact I struggle to think of any inanimate thing that I would buy if the contract made me the custodian of the piece, rather than the owner, free to do with it as I wish. I have some sympathy if the artist objects to dolls that carry her signature but no longer look as perfect as when they left her hands, but the BJD hobby is quite a small world, and most people in it are more than capable of evaluating a face up or change of costume and distingushing original from modification (and choosing the one they prefer). If it is more that her dolls are not holding their value on the secondary market and the contract is an attempt to limit reselling in order to protect her own sales I have very little sympathy.

 

Hey, if an artist wants to make sure their work isn't altered or destroyed (whatever that entails, in their minds), that's their business. If you don't want to buy it--don't! I don't see that this is a big deal at all. It's their business what they want to do. Why should anyone else care about their rate of sales or if they are alienating customers? It's not anyone else's business.

If someone wants to buy the doll knowing the artist wishes to keep it unmodified, that's also their business and not anyone else's. It seems simple to me, and not controversial at all.

If I wanted the doll enough, and wanted it as the artist wished it to look like and remain, then I'd buy it. If I wanted to just modify the heck out of it and post images all over, I'd not buy it, out of respect for the artist.

The issue of whether the artist can sue or enforce such contracts is a separate one.

I do think it's rude of someone to buy a doll and modify it if the artist has made it known that they wished their dolls not to be modified. Of course, all kinds of people don't care about being rude these days. It's all about what they want and they don't care about how anyone else feels. Whatever. It's up to the individual.

If the artist was able to sue, then I wouldn't cry about it, because people obviously know what they were getting into with that artist!

 

Well, if it remains that one artist - fine. But just imagine if other companies had the same idea. Wouldn't that be totally contrary to the idea of BJDs? Or even if only other artists wanted that their dolls remain totally unaltered?

I think this would, on the long run, ruin the speciality of BJDs - the basically blank canvas, where companies offer with their fullsets only one possibility your doll can be. Where it is no problem if you want to go for something completely different.

I do not think this idea of many different interpretation of the same sculpt is disrespectful to doll manufacturers. Quite the contrary, what this artists demands is disrespectful to BJD enthusiasts. If it were not for the customizability of BJDs, I would not be interested in dolls at all. If they have to stay the way they are, I could also collect Barbies (nothing against Barbies).

And in the end, the many shades and colours of the BJD hobby as it is now would die. Is this what we want? If he or she is successful, other companies will follow. Most BJD companies listen to what theír customers want.

 

I agree, if it's one crazy person who doesn't understand the hobby and nobody buys their product then fine, it's just an oddity. If on the other hand other companies start to think it's a good idea it would become a real problem. When microtransactions first appeared in video games there was this attitude of "oh, well it's only on stupid free to play cellphone games here and there, it wont affect anything" but only a few years later they've crept into every corner and nearly destroyed the hobby.

 

I think its almost impossible to hold someone to this. As stated multiple times there are not any actual laws that cover toys. At the end of the day that is what a doll is, its a toy. Sure an artist can express a desire to leave their dolls untouched...but what legal right do they have to pursue any sort of reimbursement if I decide I want to make my doll neon pink with horns? I have already paid them what they believe to the value of their doll.

Any sort of contract would have to be signed. If the artist were to simply mail out a COA that said "You're not allowed to mod the doll I made" All I would have to do is not sign it...and I couldn't be held liable. If they had some sort of silly clause "by purchasing this doll you agree not to mod/manipulate/etc" then I could simply have someone else buy it and then buy it second hand...I would not be agreeing to such 'purchase agreement' as I did not purchase the doll from the artist. Further more legal standing is almost impossible to uphold when dolls end up in different places where the laws are different. For example, the reason copies are so popular and produced is some countries literally do not give a crap about copyright. Thats right. There are countries were even if you have a copyrighted symbol there is -nothing- you can do about it. They can paint it all over whatever they want and you are absolutely helpless. They can copy your own device production and offer it at a fraction of the price and there is absolutely nothing you can do.

By all means an artist is entitled to run their business however they see fit. They can try to put whatever stipulations they want on their dolls...I just wouldn't buy from them. If I truly wanted the sculpt I would wait until I found it cheap on the secondhand market.

 

One person is not going to ruin the hobby! If the people in the hobby all decide to sign contracts and never mod anything, then maybe that will become common, but in what weird world will this ever happen? People like having the ability to do what they want. Some buy art objects and never mod, but others will not be interested in that--period!

If we are all for doing what we want, that includes having artists and buyers do what they want, too. We "vote" as buyers by buying what we like. If we don't want to keep items as the artist made them, we don't buy from that person--or we do and just ignore them (if you are that kind of person). But having freedom goes for letting others do what they like, too, you know.

There are dolls out there that are regarded as art objects, such as the dolls by Marina Bychkova. They are sold in galleries and cost a lot of money. They are not the type of doll you buy to mod! You CAN, of course, but it would be like wanting to paint over someone's artwork. If you don't like that whole idea--you obviously don't buy one. But other people would LOVE to buy one and treasure it as is.

Meanwhile, in our bjd world, everything out there is open for you to mod away as you wish! Why worry about the folks who would prefer to keep their dolls as art objects when it's SO not the case that this is ever going to take over the hobby?

I have many dolls I keep as full-sets. I LIKED them as fullsets and bought them for that reason. I have other dolls I bought blank. I happen to LIKE having the variety and the choice. I really like the artistic vision of others, sometimes. I'm an artist, myself (not dolls, though), and that doesn't keep me from appreciating the art of others. But of course, everyone has their own tastes.

 

As Marina Bychkova's extremely beautiful and elegant dolls are made of porcelain, you can't argue with them here. Being porcelaine dolls not to be meant to be customized, they are of course a different kind of doll.

Maybe it is possible that resin can be treated in a similar way to be unchangeable? E.g. by no sealing the resin so that you can't take the faceup off? Colours which cannot be removed? Eyes which are fixed? Sew the doll into its clothes instead of making them removable?

As a consequence, doesn't such a requirement even make the dolls of this artist even kind of off topic for this forum?

Personally, I think it would be a good idea to include into the rules of On Topic "made to be customized".

Because even it is a Volks fullset, you are allowed to remove all the items which came with the doll and give it a completely different look. You are allowed, but you have also the freedom to keep the doll as it is.

In that situation (and with any other fullset doll), the choice is yours. With that artist, it is not. Period.

What if the faceup needs to be refreshed? Are you then legally obliged to send it back to the artist to have it remade?

Of course, if I do not like these stipulation, I do not buy the doll. But what if I loved the sculpt and it perfectly fitted my particular character? Break the law?

 

There is a difference between a contract and a law. To be legally enforceable, there must be a law that clearly applies to the situation. Otherwise, what you have is a private agreement between two people, which may be enforceable (if one of them is obsessive enough) or may be just a piece of (virtual) paper without any actual authority. Especially if the parties are separated by country.

What one artist wrapped up in their "fine arts persona" does is one thing. Doll companies will look to survive and they are capable of seeing where their dollars (or equivalent) come from. As long as they come from people who are looking to customize, they will have to attend to their market or fold up.

And FYI, some porcelain dolls ARE made to be customized - it is a common practice, especially among baby and toddler doll makers - to create OOAK's from new molds for awhile, and then either sell off the molds or the right to those molds to secondary parties who continue to sell either blank or painted-to-order versions of the dolls. (according to the secondary party's ability, of course. Many times you'll see famous-name porcelain dolls at shows being sold by secondary parties, that are painted up quite differently from the style of the original artist.) (And let's not even consider the vinyl/porcelain "undead reborn" slew that show up for sale around Halloween.)

 

I think we are mixing several different things. This really leads to nowhere.

Maybe it would be more customer-friendly to politely ask your customer not to change the doll? I do not know, I also do not care whether this contract can be enforced legally or not. Its mere existence annoys me.

Anyways, I am out of this discussion.

 

No. Just no. I mean I'm an artist and would be mad at anyone destroying one of my works, but this isn't destruction. Like previously said; this hobby thrives on the freedom to create! As a sculptor you should understand that things might change and you can't lash out at your customers. If it were an OOAK art doll, fine I get it, but these aren't. Sure they aren't "mass produced" but they aren't one of a kind either. But that's just my two cents.

 

im rather torn on this one here. on the one hand, i totally see why someone would not want anyone to 'destroy' or 'pull apart' their work.
however, these are bjds and a large majority of the people of this hobby see themselves as creators or artists and these dolls are their way of creating art.
to me, it would be sad to see so many of the same thing, what makes this hobby great and interesting is to see what so many individuals do with the same sculpt- i find it inspiring.
but thats just me, i'd personally not buy from someone who is very passionate about their dolls being untouched, because why sell them to anyone if it's never going to be truly their own.

 

I'm not a doll artisan, but once upon a time, I sold art commissions. Honestly, after you pay me, I don't care if you throw the drawing away, color over it, sell it, trade it, gift it, EAT IT. It's yours! Enjoy! Have fun! I got paid.

I understand that some artists might feel differently, and they do have every right to express their opinions on the matter. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not actually sure how enforceable that is after the sale, but I'm sure there are a lot of people in the hobby that are completely fine with not hybriding, modding, etc. because those activities simply weren't part of their plans for the doll to begin with. I personally don't care to hybrid or mod resin dolls. I'm into the customization aspect on some off-topic dolls, but when it comes to resin, I MAYBE will want a new faceup. Other than that, I'm just here to play dress up.

 

I really can't imagine such a contract being enforceable, in the way it's been described here. As others have pointed out, there are the issues of international law, repair modifications, second-hand ownership, debate over where the line falls between "customizing" and modifying, etc etc etc...

I definitely understand having hurt feelings if someone modified a doll you made, because it could be taken to mean they didn't think your creation was good enough... But as a business model, it doesn't make sense. Once the product has been bought, the purchase is done and it's out of your hands. That's the contract. VARA only comes into play in the cases @KlanceKlanceRevolutn quoted in post #3: authorship (if someone is plagiarizing or counterfeiting your designs) and reputation/honor (they're somehow dragging down your brand name by associating your designs with illegal or immoral material, shoddy replicas, etc).

The only time modifications would come into play would be if someone really messed up a doll and tried to claim that the ruined sculpting or bad engineering was the creator's original work, which would again make it an issue of authorship and reputation. A modification which is clearly identified as "a modification by Person X to Person Y's doll" wouldn't apply, because it's not trying to apply authorship of either person to the other's work.

In other cases, getting personal feelings and preferences involved about how the doll is treated or styled seems unreasonable, unprofessional, and not legally binding. Is Louis Vuitton going to track you down and go "You've violated my artistic image by putting a non-LV wallet into my purse you bought last year, I'm going to sue you"? No, of course not.

So while VARA laws of course come into play in terms of things like recasting, what you're selling as a dollmaker is a product, not intellectual property itself. (It's not like selling publishing rights on a manuscript or a character design or something. If the contract were for reproduction rights for the doll's design, then that would be a very different situation.) So sure, go ahead and politely request that people respect the integrity of the art object you've made, but forbidding tampering under threat of lawsuit? No thanks, doesn't sound like an artist I want to support.

 

I personally would not want to buy from such an artist.

It'd be one thing if they simply stated that they'd really prefer buyers to not modify their dolls -- art can definitely be a very intimate thing even if artists do need to eat like everyone else, and I don't like to hurt people when it doesn't cost me anything to be respectful. The unenforceable contract, though, smacks strongly of illicit tactics and would make me leery of any kind of business transaction with that person.

I honestly don't see why they couldn't just blacklist any customers who failed to respect their wishes, anyways.

 

You know, the artist can say whatever, have buyers sign her contract, etc. LOL Most people aren't going to buy from her in those circumstances. I see there IS one person at least who's bent that way, which shows there might be a market. I think that those who adhere to that idea (Full set never undress, never do anything creative w/my doll blah blah blah) are boring - they remind me of my cousin who got all upset cause she'd buy my girls matching outfits & I'd encourage the kids to mix & match (oh, the horror!) But the world would be terribly uninteresting if everybody were the same LOL
So I have nothing against this.
BTW I doubt she's gonna get an avalanche of buyers to the point that other doll companies would ever consider following suit :d I mean, Volks marketing is what it is (yech) and they are successful, but you certainly don't see other companies following their example :d Thank goodness...

 

I would buy it and alter it to be petty and when they realize they can't do anything about it I'd just laugh. Some artists in this world and hobby just think way too much of themselves, there has always been a pervasive arrogance problem in the art world.

 

I mean you can try a contract, but given how international this hobby is, and the average income of artist types, I think any manner of enforcement would be difficult.

I know there are BJD companies that would prefer you do not hybrid, I have been given that reason by some companies that only sell full dolls and never separate head/bodies.

But none of them are going to spend time and money hunting you down to stop you and they can't really stop the secondhand market and people who arrange splits when they purchase.

I personally wouldn't buy from an artist who seems a bit like a control freak, especially if the form of art I am buying is one that I feel is inherently not static, like dolls. I know there are tons of control freak arrogant fine artists, but that isn't my wheelhouse.