Discussion The Joint: BJD-making discussion

Another 3D modelling question...

So, after sculpting the head in Sculptris and using 3D builder to subtract spheres for eyewells, I loaded the mesh into Blender to check for non-manifolds (because I read that this can cause the 3D print to fail). Unfortunately, there are a ton of non-manifolds along the eyelid edges of the eyewells. I've tried Blender tricks for fixing these, but it just makes things worse. I haven't even hollowed out the rest of the head yet, or added an opening for an s-hook, or sliced off the headcap...so I imagine those will complicate problems even further.

Have any of you found that these non-manifolds actually interfere with your head getting printed?

 

@Zardi
MeshLab is a program that fixes them but I've never had issues with non manifold edges myself.

Usually if it has problems opening back up in sculptris (bc its not a very powerful tool) then i change something minor that no one will see, re-export from sculptris and have it subtract again 'cause 3D builder isn't all that smart when it comes to subtractions and sometimes their algorithms mess up (a lot)

Edit: what kind of non manifold edges are you having problems with? Intersecting planes?

 

That's a good question. I downloaded Meshlab and loaded the head, and it's finding quite a few self-intersecting planes both around the eyewells and just randomly around the head. It also found non-manifold vertices, though.

How have you managed to hollow out/subtract eyewells without forming non-manifolds? Or is it that they just haven't caused any printing problems for you?

If they haven't caused printing errors, I'll probably finish the head and get it printed in some cheap material just to see if it works.

 

@Zardi
There's a slight degree of tolerance for the eye sizes so when I subtract them and find that it gives issues, I revert to an earlier stage without the issues and change something minor like position or eyeball size (since it only changes eye well depth) or even just replace with a new sphere and try subtracting it again. It took me 2 tries and worked on only the left eye but when I turned symmetry back on in sculptris, it removed the other eye too. It seems like it's partly luck based.

Nonmanifold edges do cause issues though. If you submit it to a professional printing service then they will not print it for you because the geometry of the figure is not possible to be printed.

That said, if you're not using a service and you have your own FDM printer or something, you might be able to get it to print anyways.
Maker's Muse talks about it a little bit and shows what happens if you print anyways: [1] [2]

 

Thanks I watched the videos and I understand what he's saying, but I'm not doing anything that wacky. All I did was subtract two spheres from the head to create eyewells and openings (just like any bjd head would have) but that's somehow creating non-manifold edges.

I feel so inept at this I thought the hard part would be creating a nice-looking head, and that carving out the parts to make it functional would be pretty straight-forward, but obviously not. I think the head looks good, but I can't seem to make it functional and printable.

 

@Zardi
Lmao it's like the ultimate surprise right? It was a bit of an unpleasant shock to me too haha.
Thinking about it logically though, it does make sense why subtractions or shape manipulations like cuts and intersections or maybe even merges would give programs a lot of problems.

I've been thinking it might be good to invest in zbrush just to see if they have a more robust algorithm for subtractions? Just because theyre an industry standard.

How's your head looking though!

 

I just downloaded Sculptris earlier today. I still haven't had a chance to actually test anything out yet, but I'm excited to give it a shot tomorrow! It will have to contend with my re-applying my clay head's ears though. I finally figured out how to fully utilize my newishly acquired rotary tool, so I've started refining him a bit more finally. x_____x Still can't seem to figure out how to make the mouth corners work though. ((i shaved em down, I'm gonna try again, lol))

SAM_0797 by AirimirOfGondor, on Flickr

 

Yeah, I've been wondering whether ZBrush Core would be enough to at least make this process easier.

I've managed to make a large hollow area inside the head that didn't produce any non-manifolds, though it did cause a few other problems that I am now trying to fix in Blender, specifically a few thin faces and some zero faces. If I can eliminate those, I will then try to create eyewells. Sculptris is still able to open that model, despite the problems.

Here are a few screenshots of the head from Sculptris. It's based off a video game character (customizeable protagonist, so I hope no copyright issues), so I can't claim to have done it without references, but I'm reasonably happy with how it turned out. I'm trying to decide whether to enlarge the eyes, though, since even realistic BJDs tend to have proportionally larger eyes.

shephead_front by AndreaJEP, on Flickr

shephead_3quarter by AndreaJEP, on Flickr

shephead_profile by AndreaJEP, on Flickr

 

@AirimirOfGondor
Haha sometimes i wish the little post feature would be on the side instead of below all the posts so I dont have to scroll up to reply but

That's a lot of progress!
If you need help on lips though, there's a few good anatomy books I can recommend you o:

@Zardi
I dont think creating disconnected hole inside the head should ever create any non manifolds or large amount of intersecting vertices! Since the issue arises when you have two different surfaces contacting and the program needs to decide what edges are important and what needs to be remeshed. So I think you can rest assured on that front!

I think the eye size is fine though! It looks good haha.
I also dont think you should run into any issues for sculpting based off a character creator. The problems come more with copyright designs and intellectual property but you cant sue someone for having a similar looking face

 

@Zardi Oh wow, that looks so great so far!

@BoneLace thank you! I think I just started it off wonky, I have high hopes for them this time!

 

Aw, thank you! Yours is looking pretty good as well, especially considering you're working with real clay and have no symmetry shortcuts. Is that Das clay?

 

@Zardi Thank you! And yes, that is Das clay. It sure smells bad though! I want to seal and prime him soon, and then maybe use something like Apoxie Sculpt, or get LaDoll to do better details for his eye corners and lips and nostrils and stuff, the Das just flakes off so easily, I keep needing to repair chunks.

And I finally tested out Sculptris a little this morning -- I am definitely going to need time to get the hang of it! At first I started with a ball, and tried to pop a nose on, and a mouth, lol. Then I actually watched some tutorials, so now I at least figured out why the program kept crashing.

 

@AirimirOfGondor looking good so far! I'm impressed that you can get decent results with Das. I found it about as easy to work with as garden clay. You'd find Premier a lot easier for small details.

@Zardi he looks nice! I like the eye size as is.

 

She, not he, but thank you

 

@Zardi oops, sorry! Nice either way.

 

@Alewife thank you! Hopefully I can get my hands on some soon!

 

Anyone have a favorite place for 3D printing? I know Shapeways is a big one, and also have seen Sculpteo. There are so many different materials, though, and almost every 3D print that I've seen in person has been really fuzzy (with the exception of my Makie doll, which is more of a wood grain).

I guess my thought is that once I finish a head that I'm completely happy with, I'll get it printed and then use that to try making my own resin cast. I've never done anything like this, though

 

@Zardi
My favorite place is shapeways as you've mentioned.
Currently 3D printing is not a technique that will just give you a finished product and most people will sand and prime their 3D printed part before painting.

The "fuzziness" of 3D printing is a byproduct of the printing process (where material is laid down layer by layer).
I have heard though that you can get it printed in resin for the clearest resolution. And I've also been told that getting it printed in acrylic gives the smoothest finish.
I haven't checked either of these materials though since I've always intended to sand and prime before sending it off to maybe Haru for casting

 

@BoneLace Thanks for the advice I decided to go ahead and print this head rather than wait for a "perfect" one, just to see how it turns out. I saw the material that I think you're talking about: black high definition acrylate. It claims to be as smooth as an injection molded item, but would have cost $140 to print the head (in case anyone is curious), so I just got smooth white plastic instead.

I hope The Joint gets fully merged soon. I didn't expect to have this much fun with this

 

@Zardi
Yup I think that's the one!

I think if you get a dremel with a buffer attachment, then you don't even have to sand the material much yourself and it also comes out very smooth. The primer you use afterwards should give it the final finish smoothness that you want as well.

(Have you seen the metal printing though?? So tempting to get a super small version made in gold or something haha)

 

The primer you're referring to is Mr. Surfacer/auto primer, right?

I was astounded at the gold...and the platinum! I'd have to sell my house for that kind of money! That's nuts

 

That's the one I was thinking of yes! But I think there's some other ones out there too and some casting services will prime it for you. I'm not too sure what I'm going to go with personally haha.

And yeah! I know it doesn't meet DOA's 'on topic' requirements but it would be so cool to have a gold plated bjd or something!

 

Anyone know any good casting services?

 

Haru Casting has become wildly popular with sculptors looking to get pro casts of their dolls. They are very active on Flickr and Tumblr, so it's easy to see what they're working on at any given time. They have a reasonable minimum order (10 casts, last I knew), and a practically unlimited selection of resin color options (the fancy colors cost extra, of course) They offer several finishing options, so you can save a little money by doing final assembly yourself, or they can do all that for you.

 

Haru had a user on the Joint as well and even though they have not been very active, they have been there to answer questions in the past. I have had a head cast with them and even if it did take a little longer than it should have (I believe they had a problem with another cast shortly before mine and that caused the delay) they did reply to questions and once I had politely poked them a little (I needed my parts for a convention that was coming up) they delivered pretty fast and the casting quality was great,
I was happy with them.

 

People seem very happy with Haru. Dollshe and Weiju also have good reputations. If you're feeling adventurous, I believe some "regular" doll companies also offer custom casting (Mirodoll for one).

 

I googled Weiju and found this article about one person's experiences with different casting companies: LittleRebel | European Ball-jointed dolls

 

Sweet, thanks! I'll keep them in mind

 

That's a good comparative review. Thanks for the link.

 

Does anyone know the size of magnets used by Haru casting? O:
And if your sculpt needs to be primed before it's sent to Haru?

I tried asking him but I didn't get any reply on this

 

@BoneLace Haru will match the size of the magnets to the space you sculpted, they have different sized magnets.
And yes, your sculpt needs to be primed. I don't know if you can order priming service, maybe …

 

I can't help you with the magnets, but I had most luck contacting them using the e-mail given on their home page.
As far as I know the parts you send need to be ready to cast. Finished and primed, inside and out, using a primer that is confirmed to work with their silicone.

 

What primer is the recommended one?

I've asked this as well but it got skipped over because we were talking about resin color samples OTL

 

Tamiya surface primer
tamiya surface primer - „Google“ paieška:

As for magnets, the ones Haru uses himself for their Adori are 8mm in diameter. I have seen him use other size magnets too. Moreover, he probably can carve holes for other sized magnets too. On another hand, Little Rebel had magnet problems with Haru, because he could not find needed size magnets.

 

Oh! That's good. It's the one I was planning to get!

But as for the magnet size question: since I'm getting my sculpt 3D printed, it's actually better to account for any holes oh might need in your 3D model so it prints with the hole rather than drill afterwards. So I'd need a general diameter and thickness of the magnet before I print it
＿( :3」∠)_

 

Would you recommend spray primer or brush-on? I'm seeing both options on Amazon.

 

If you use the brush on you need an air brush, it's just like spraying sealer for face-ups.

There are other primers that can be used. I sent a sample of my preferred primer when I orderend my heads (I used MrSurfacer for those to be safe, but I didn't like it) so that I know for next time.
The one I sent a sample of was a local brand, Hagmans Etch Primer, but I'm sure there are plenty others that would work as well. You need to talk to them for the details on things like magnets and primer, we can't speak for them.

 

Would a 3d printed doll prime the same way a clay one would? I'm in digital design, so if i ever do make my own doll (future goals), it will most likely be printed, primed, then cast.

 

It would depend on what material it was printed in. Different materials are going to react to primer differently. Paper clay is pretty porous so it'll usually take paints/primers better then a more non-porous material. Many of which may require more specialized paints.

 

With the joint and DoA coming together again does that mean we can only discuss resin bjd making that fits DoA rules?

 

For those who have tried both Tamiya and Mr Primer Surfacer, which do you prefer? I may try switching to Tamiya.

Picspamming some progress and a mockup on one of the dolls I'm sculpting:

 

@stray.dream
Wow, your doll looks amazing! I love the mockup you've done, it looks so cool. Are you sculpting the body as well?

 

oh damn that's a really good looking sculpt!! Mocking up a faceup was a great idea!!

I'm going to hope that the new iteration of my sculpt is going to post here but if not I'll just link it later lmao. I finally got magnet holes and I changed the eyes to be more realistic in shape

Edit:
I also just noticed that different shaders make the eye shapes look different and I'm not sure how the eyes are going to print out :/
Here's what it looks like on the sculpting program

Spoiler

 

I've also noticed that using different materials in Sculptris makes the sculpt look really different. I think it's just the lighting emphasizing different parts of the sculpt, though, rather than the shape actually being different.

 

Not necessarily. Zbrush (and subsequently sculptris as well) have had complaints about how they render perspective for objects. This would effect object shape for 3D prints. I've been trying to check the sculpt in different programs as a work around though it's something good to keep in mind.

Seeing the lighting effect the sculpt this much makes me worried though because what if this particular lighting happens just happens to show the object most accurately to life? If so then should follow this lighting for sculpting rather than others and etc

 

Well, did you notice any significant difference between the old sculpt and the print you received of it?

My first print should arrive in a few days. I can post comparison pictures of it alongside screenshots from Sculptris, too, so we have more examples.

 

@KiyoshiSenshi thanks! I do intend to sculpt the body too - but after I'm finished working on the female body. It'll probably be a long while.

@BoneLace thank you! Your guy looks super handsome! Mockups are very helpful I think to help naildown the eye shape especially. I now know how far in I'll want to place the tear ducts.

 

I think there's 2-3 areas in the print that I would like to change now that I can see it as a physical object since sculptris didn't show them well (though understandable. They were rather hidden)

@stray.dream
Yeah! You did great on yours :0c I'll be excited to see where you get with him! I didn't realize how much a faceup could add to a doll
Are you moving the tear ducts closer together? :0c

 

My head arrived early, so I took a few pictures to compare to the Sculptris screenshots. Other than the head being too small (which is my fault), I'm pleased with how it turned out for a practice head. I plan to sand it smooth and prime it with Tamiya primer, then I might try casting it myself just to see how the process goes.

The eyes do indeed look different. The printed version has higher outer corners for some reason. I also want to reduce the width of the head behind the jaw, because when looking at the printed head in person (not close up through a cell phone camera), it makes the jaw look wider than it really is.








And here is a picture showing the texture of Shapeways "strong and flexible polished" white plastic.

 

oooh do let me know how it turns out! I haven't sanded any of mine yet so I've been curious to know how it'd work. I plan on using a buffer from a dremel to try and get it a little bit more even but tbh ive been suspecting that just priming the strong and flexible polished print would be enough.

Did you just make a flat cut for the headcap? I've been trying to figure out the best way to get magnets on the sculpt

 

Ooohh, he's so pretty!
Going to share pics when he's finished?

 

Hi. I'm kinda new to sculpting and have only done it a couple times previously but I am really happy that the joint is moving in!
I've been working on an SD size this past week. I'm nowhere near done, though. I've only been sculpting the face for two days.

 

Hey guys! Here's an update on the four horsemen; Ambrosia or on Pestilence body has been drawn out (save the arms). She will have a Raven Skull Helmet, that fully covers her face. Dressed in rags (black rags, tattered bandage), hold a longer necklace with an hourglass, and several disease-ridden deformities to link to plague and the olden plague doctors.

Features of the body: three-piece torso to enable slouching backwards and forwards, plus rotation of the torso. There will be several notched to lock the poses. The legs are single jointed, and will have more notches to lock the legs in a bent position. Combined with the torso, this posing will cause the knuckles to "drag" over the floor.

Let me know what you think! I don't have any dolls so I am winging this feedback is welcome! I'm trying to push the limits of the proportions and I want to know how I can improve this design!

IMG_20170818_215838 by Miss Le, on Flickr

 

This is so beautiful!!! Wow!! I'm working on a sculpt of my own as well and I hope she turns out as beautiful as yours!!!

 

@LeMiss
Nice! I was working n a similar thing the other day lmao.
Though I think the rib cage on yours could be a little more rounded off design wise.
Have you ever seen doll chateau? They also offer bodies similar to yours so you might be able to look off their bodies as a reference as well. I've learned a lot about how the shape of your sculpt affects what type of joints you should be creating for it.
Some links:
Doll Parts, Doll Chateau - BJD Dolls, Accessories - Alice's Collections
Doll Parts, Doll Chateau - BJD Dolls, Accessories - Alice's Collections

 

@AnOldSalty

We are still discussing the finer details of what will be allowed and were, so I'm afraid we can't answer that just yet. When the merge does happen, we will be sure to make an announcement to explain things.

 

perhaps that would be a good idea, I'll take it into consideration

Is it me or did the head lose some depth during printing?

 

@LeMiss no, it just looks like that in the picture. That matte white plastic was hard to photograph with my phone, and I probably should have used a harsher light source. Once I'm done sanding and priming, I will post more comparison pictures

 

Aah, fair enough! I was a bit concerned there :p

 

Ha. Now that its been a few days and the head is pretty much done, I realize that picture I gave looks so bad. Sorry.

@LeMiss That body looks so gorgeous despite being disease ridden and all that. I really can't wait to see it done!