Discussion The Joint: BJD-making discussion

@dragolivia : Plastic straws, stick some wooden sticks inside for reinforcement.

edit: I just realized, the straws for the limbs and plastic wrap for the body. depending on what your are using for the "shell' tightly scrunched up paper can pulled out or boiled out.

 

What materials will you be working with?

 

Sorry to be late responding. I had 10 heads cast at Weiju (Island Doll) for $650 IIRC. Custom tan color, environmental resin, and they sanded and installed magnets. This was a few years ago. Haru's price looks better!

 

Oh, ok I wondered about that. That could work, I think. Thanks!
So you mixed apoxy clay with polymer? Did it cure fully, or did it need to be baked? Apoxy is weird, not quite as sculptable as polymer.

Not quite sure, I have apoxy clay already, but I might pick up some paper clay as apoxy is a little hard for me to use. I just want something that's really sturdy after cured/baked/hardened.
Actually if anyone has recommendations on what clay I should use I'm all ears. Apoxy is really sturdy and great, but weird and kinda hard to use. Polymer is great for sculpting but a little too fragile. I've heard both good things and bad things about paper clay, but I understand everyone's got their own preferences for clay so. What I might do is sculpt the base layer with apoxy and add on paper clay.

 

Yes, I mixed it well together, it slows down the curing time for the Apoxy, But it will still cure rather quickly ( you have a working time of an hour?)
It's much stronger then just polymer clay, but not as strong as pure apoxy clay.
you could try making a apoxy "shell" and then putting polymer on top. Like what I did with my doll.

It does not need baking.

 

Cool. I might mess around with some mixtures before I start sculpting and see how I like it.

 

I have a confession to make.
I have started a new project.
I wasn't supposed to:
I still have some work to do on the Basil body to make it ready for casting and I'm also getting ready to move into a house and should really focus on finish ongoing projects, not stating new ones but... well... It was an accident!

Somehow my brain decided that Basil needs an optional part in the shape of a tentacle arm.
At least it is a fairly straight forward project.
This is my progress so far.



1. First I made a core from a drinking straw and some tin foil.
2. Then I added a layer of polymer clay and baked it.
3. Another layer of clay added to get up to the right thickness. I also did some general smoothing, but since this will not be a textured tentacle, I can sand it pretty thoroughly later, so I don’t worry too much. I just made sure to get the general shape and volume right.
4. Rough sanding. I wet sanded it with 240 grit sandpaper. Here it is easy to see any low spots.
5. I went over any problem parts with a dremel with a sanding barrel and then went over the entire thing with the 240 paper again. Most of the marks that can be seen ot the piece is marbling in the clay from me not mixing it properly, the surface is mostly smooth. I have also marked where the thing will be cut.


I have made more progress than this, but I have not yet edited the pictures. I still wanted to show what I had so far.


Reasons for the decisions made about materials and workflow for this project:
Scope:
This project is intended to be a small little thing that I can hopefully finish before I move. At least I want to get the sculpting done. I will be able to set up a much better workspace in the house, so priming, finishing and casting will be easier to do safely there. This will be a perfect little test project to test out the new place.
This means I will not let this project spiral out of control. No extra fifteen differently posed and shaped tip parts. No fancy textures. No experimental joints. No adapter parts to make it compatible with as many dolls as possible. Just one simple tentacle. (Well, this time.)
The priority is to finish within the timeframe.
Core:
When I cast it, I will cast it with placeholder rods to create the holes. This means I don’t need a perfectly smooth and even inside of the parts. I just need a hole of the right size and placement to facilitate test stringing.
The foil core is a good way to bulk the part out. It’s cheap, easy to shape and easy to remove around the joints where needed. It reduces the amount of clay. I could have replaced the foil with additional layers of clay, but the risk of parts not baking properly, the piece warping and of the straw melting would have been greater and it would have taken a lot longer and cost more.
Time:
As it is, the progress in this post was done in about four hours. And that is from start to where I’m at, at the last picture, including planning, baking and cooling. I even squeezed in a coffee break.
This to me is one of the greatest things about polymer clay, you don’t have to wait for hours as it dries or cures. In this case it was a matter of two times of fifteen minutes each of baking.
Clay:
The clay I’m using here is a mix of Super Scupey, white Fimo Professional, and a bit of black Fimo Soft. There is no real science behind this. I just wanted something in a neutral color that still had a hint of that sculpey translucency and was softer than regular Fimo and I just used things I had on hand. I should have mixed it better as there is a visible marbling effect going on, but its consistency is homogenous enough that it really is just a visual thing. It feels and sands perfectly even, so I will call it good enough for this project.

 

Progress pic on my doll project:

Dem legs!



Not totally done with the legs of course. I still have to sculpt the knees but they can wait, I've made good progress this week

 

More progress!




1. The parts have been cut apart. At this stage I realized most of them needed to be shorter to get the smooth bend I want for the tentacle.
2. Here the extra cut has been made using a cutting disc with the dremel. I only cut until I reach the foil core.
3. I cut through the aluminum foil with an old saw blade. It’s much faster than trying to get through it with the dremel and the aluminium will wear the cutting disc down a lot faster than just the clay anyway.

 

@Lillith congratulation for new house /studio

 

Thank you. I'm looking forward to it. I will finally be able to set up a proper ventilated area for spraying primers and casting and I will have a good place for sculpting and storing molds and materials as well. Right now I live in a small apartment and to get everything to work in a somewhat safe way is always a pain.

 

The reason why I only want 1 doll casted is because I'm not going to be selling this doll. Its more for personal use. Really, I just want a resin doll to submit into an nation wide art contest my school submits to. Im not really seeing casting this doll as a profit to sell. Making dolls into an actual business I know will take me a long time and dedication, but that's not what Im aiming for at the moment. Thank you for the insight though!

 

For a one-off, you might be better off not getting it cast at all. Whether one doll or 20, resin casting would have high set-up costs. Maybe polymer clay or Apoxie would work for your purpose.

 

I agree with @Alewife.
Simply making an original OOAK doll will probably score better in a contest, anyway. If you have it cast by someone else may not even be allowed if it's an art contest. A sculpted doll that will not be cast also means a lot less work on the inside on the doll.

The contest also makes your time for the project very limited. Sculpting a doll is just one part. Making it ready to cast may take just as long and the casting itself will at the very least take a few weeks, even with a professional casting service. Add to that that there may be delays depending on their workload and the risk of things happening to your doll in the mail. If you send the original sculpts you risk losing something that isn't really replaceable. When I did the Skyfall head I made a rough cast at home, then I did some final changes to that and sent it out. If something had happened, I would only have lost the hours spent on the cast head, not the countless hours spent on the head originally. But that project is on a somewhat semi-professional level, as in I hope it will eventually turn a profit, or at least that the things I learned from that project will make it possible to turn a profit on future projects. So my motivation for that decision is a bit different from your situation.

 

Alright, lets say I do instead just sculpt a OOAK in sculpey, but I see a lot of artists use different sculpey types. Theres sculpey firm, sculpey medium blend, but since I want a skin tone to make it easier on me in the end I see there is Sculpey Living Doll. But is living doll firm like sculpey original? I wouldn't want to work with a soft clay like sculpey III. Also, the character I plan on sculpting is a tan skinned person. They only have it in white skin tones. Which then brings me to the consideration of spray painting him tan in the end, but there isn't a lot of skin tone spray paints out there. Then there's the option of dying the doll in the end as if you were dying a resin doll, but I'm worried, would dying sculpey in boiling water ruin the clay? Also, the thing about sculpey I worry about cracking. Especially on if there is a limit on how many times you can re-bake sculpey. Then there's an option of mixing a bit of brown into the living doll sculpey, but I'm sure that would end up making the clay softer, which wouldn't be nice to work with. Or maybe in the end when it comes to face up- and body blushing I just blush it to look like a darker skin than it is, like how people blush white resin to look like a really pale skin tone? Not sure if I would be successful with that.

Haha, everything is so complicated when I start to consider using sculpey, especially since the character I want to sculpt is a tan skintone.

 

@Kaygabrielart : The only thing that I would suggest is to experiment using different blends of clay to see what you like best. Boiling water won't ruin polymer clay it will also 'cook' it.
Try different things.
Even if you 'mess up' with a small bit of clay, it will still give you learning experience and new information to use on the next experimental bit of clay.

 

I think what you need to do is to do some hands on experiments. Buy a couple of different clays that you think could work and try them out. Get a feel for them, see how they bake, how durable they turn out to be and if a mix may be the best way to go. There are also a lot of brands of polymer clay other than Sculpey that may be worth checking out. Most polymer clays can be mixed, regardless of brand, but again testing it out before you decide what will work best for you is a good idea.
I find making large part in soft clay is very difficult, but since most polymer clays bake best at thin layers, that is not a big problem when you actually start working.
Mixing a little bit of a highly pigmented clay into a translucent clay will usually end up mostly still being the consistency of the translucent clay and mostly the color of the one you mixed in. There may be a small change, but if it is enough of a change to be a problem or not is a matter of preference.

Another thing to keep in mind is that polymer clay will behave differently at different temperatures. Adapting your workflow so that a part gets to "rest" and cool down a bit every now and then can really help if you are having problems with the clay getting too soft.
Other materials (like what kind of cores you make) can have an effect too.

It is probably a lot easier to find a good mix that is the color you want for the finished doll, than it would be to paint it afterwards, but easier still would of course be to find a clay you like as it is. You will have to weigh the extra work needed to mix the clay against the extra work of learning to work around a type of clay that you do not find right for the job.

I don't know if this is of any help, but here is a picture of the clays I mixed together for the tentacle project so you can see the proportions. The flesh toned clay is Super Sulpey, the white clay is Fimo Professional and the little bit of black is Fimo Soft. The clay still behaves mostly like Super sculpey, despite the Fimo Professional being quite a bit more firm on its own. I'm guessing it's the softeners in the Super Sculpey that does it, but I don’t know the whole chemistry behind it.

 

Interested to see how it works... also amused at the line “Basil needs an optional part in the shape of a tentacle arm.” Because who doesn’t need an optional tentacle arm?

 

This is seriously the best thing to read first thing in the morning. Truly, who DOESN'T need one? Sounds very handy, especially when I drop something behind or under the couch.

 

My thoughts, exactly.
I have gotten as far as to make a first joint and test it out to make sure it moves smoothly. Looks promising so far, no snapping and it works pretty much the same with high and low tension on the elastic and that's always a good sign. So I'm giving myself the all clear to move ahead with the rest of the Joints.

 

Wow, it’s looking really neat. How many pieces were you thinking of having? The articulation with a lot of pieces would be brilliant fun. Look forward to seeing tentacle-basil!

 

Right now the plan is a total of eight parts.
I originally intended to have just five, but I realized that more parts with a little less mobility in each joint would probably look more tentacle-like than fewer parts with a greater range between each. I wanted to get away from the elbow look of an ordinary arm.
While more parts takes more time, the joints are pretty straight forward and the shapes are simple, so I still think I will be able to do it in time.

 

I smoothed and fixed some parts of the face (such as the brow bones). I finally cast him. The cast itself is kinda bad but I haven't had the time lately to try again. So here is what I got. Hopefully I can give him eyes and a face up soon.

 

Do you have any side shots of ears etc? Also, cast looks quite good (I don’t see bubbles) since when I did a test casting it was full of bubbles! XD I’m getting a pressure tank though. Also, did you try him on a body? I’d be interested to see how he fits.

Aside from eyes and face up, what’s your next plan? ^-^

 

How difficult was the mold-making and casting process, in your opinion?

 

So, I did some finishing/sanding on one of my 1/3 heads. I also changed his ears: I wanted him to have big ears. ^_^ His ears need a heap of sanding. His eye sockets still need a fair bit of work to get eyeballs sitting nicely. And his eyelids need refining especially at the outer corners, where they look bulky and heavy handed.

I’m actually happy with nose and mouth. He has a fitting head back, so he’s getting to the stage where I’m starting to consider casting once I’ve sorted the eyes.





For some reason it wasn’t letting me post both pics in one post.

 

I think there is a one image per post limitation on most of the forum. Another reason we need that merge. This is getting silly.

I like how you shaped his cheeks and the sides of his face. He looks like someone who would actually have room for a skull and muscles under his skin, but it's still smooth and refined, not hyper realistic. It's a fine balance and I think you have nailed it.
There is something about the mouth, though, I don't know if it's intentional. The right corner of his mouth is higher than his left. This gives him a slightly different expression depending on from what angle you look at him. On the first image he look determined, and even slightly amused, but on the other he looks a bit more hesitant or a bit uncomfortable. It could be a trick of the light, though as his right brow ridge also looks a little higher.
He has an interesting face.

 

His mouth is intentional (slight smirk, ever so slight, and I love lopsided smiles - they might be a trademark one day, XD), brows not so much! I’m certainly struggling for symmetry on his eyes, hence the constant reworking. Now that you mention it, I don’t think it’s height but there’s more of a curve on the left than the right (I see why you mean it looks higher though, the outside is because it’s less curved) I might add some apoxie to even it out and file down some more. I think you can see that his eyeballs aren’t sitting nicely either, and the inside of his eyelid is too thick and heavy. He was the first one I started seriously, in March last year, and he’s been in constant refinement as I learn! It seems like every time I consider casting, there’s a not quite right bit. I don’t want to waste casting supplies until I’m happy with the sculpt, despite being desperate for a resin one.

Now I have to decide which side I prefer! I was trying for realism but I think he’s had so many layers of primer now that he’s got a sort of shell. Oh well... I really enjoy sculpting so we’ll see what happens now (I just wish I had more time).

My sculpting is definitely getting better, so I hope in another year I’ll be decent!

Here’s an example a year apart... and the 2017 one is much smaller (slightly over 1/6 scale - I turned him into a bust... looks like a little roman emperor now!). The imperfections and asymmetry were intentional in that one! Hopefully I can do one in autumn this year and see more improvement.

 

Practice makes perfect.

 

@Spuggey I took a quick snap:

I don't have a body his scale. My next plan is to sculpt his body. I already have an upper torso but I think I am going to scrap it. I haven't made his head cap yet but I will soon. I've been busy with an animation project so I've been spending not enough time on this lately >_< . I will do more soon, though. But basically, my next plans are to sculpt a body.

@Zardi I plan to make a youtube video reviewing, giving my opinions on this technique. As soon as I finish the head cap, I'll post it. But mold making in general was frustrating and messy . I shook, tapped and really worked at the silicone and popped a lot of the bubbles. I had absolutely no bubbles no the face! I had one maybe two on the ear but besides that, I was proud of myself. Casting was a little frustrating because my resin cures so fast. I put 1:1 like it says and it starts to cure in minutes. I didn't even finish filling the mold the first time. So I have a half head somewhere. I put a little less of the harder and it didn't cure right so I guess I am going to have to work around fast curing. I think the resin is getting close to it's expiration but I'm not sure. I also got a little in the carpet.... >_< Note to self: Next time try doing it outside or in the garage or something next time.

 

I actually like the heavy eyelids. It makes him look older or more weathered than typical BJD sculpts. Though I understand sanding them down if that wasn't the look you were going for. Still, he looks great

Decent in a year? Goodness, you're already more than "decent!" Even on the older sculpt, everything looks about right except for the eyelids, which are a bit flat. But even then, the cheeks look like they have actual muscles in them. I love the contours.

The newer head looks like Harrison Ford. Was that the intention?

It does look like a pretty smooth cast, at least in the pictures Did you use any specialized equipment, like what was discussed a few pages ago? What resin did you use? I'm still trying to decide whether to try casting just a couple of copies of my head for myself, or send it off to Haru and try to sell the extra copies.

 

Yes, I was working from photos of Harrison when I did the sculpt (hence the intentional asymmetry). Nothing I love more than when someone actually recognises one of them!

I actually hate that 2016 head, and gave up working on it. Has no jaw or chin, really... also looks unintentionally like someone I dislike XD. And thank you... it’s taking a lot of practice but the practice is fun so I’m going to keep going.

 

Arms where sculpted, then the whole body was covered in some brush on primer.
Sanded then airbrushed a a good even coat of matte gray paint. Phew!
I have to give it a few coats of clear gloss and it will be ready for molding.

What about the joints you say?
Well, after making the mold and thus copies, I will be working directly with the copy for the joints.

But he's missing some other body parts...
Yes indeed! since I am not confidant as sculpting little fingers and toes, I will be substituting them for parts from an Obitsu doll.
As for the head.... Well.... I want that to be a surprise. ^_^

He's going to be very much off topic when he's completed. He wont' be made out of resin and he'll have plastic parts. He will be strung with elastic only in certain joints.

 

Looks good so far! Do you usually use gloss for moulding? Does it make a difference?

 

No actually, I think that I could do without the gloss. It's just to help even the surface a bit more.
I'm just a little bit worried about the primer/paint peeling off when I make the molds.

 

Have you tried applying some vaseline on your pieces before pouring silicone? I know it works on epoxy pieces.

 

I have mold release that I'm going to spray on before pouring the sillicone.

 

That should work as well. I know both epoxy and primered pieces need mold-releasing substances when mold-making.

 

@Zardi I didn't use any special equipment and there are a few bubbles just under the surface that don't really show up in the picture. I personally think I am going to use either use a casting service or get equipment for casting the full doll. My resin is nothing special.

 

I don't have enough silicone....

Ahh well... I suppose that It can wait until I can more.

 

Imma finally pop back in here. It's been about 6 months since I spent any time working on my head.
This is where he was for the longest time:
Lydia on Instagram

And that was just before I finally got a chance to open up my LaDoll Premier to play with, so he now looks like this:
Lydia on Instagram

The lips were one of my big issues with him, so I redid them entirely. And in the process I added some eyelids and more to his forehead (which I didn't snag pictures of yet), which I think changed the look of the whole head, so everything looks a little off now. Though with the lips specifically, I am concerned that they look too pursed now, or maybe just the upper lip is too big. :/ I think sanding them down a little may help, but I'm a little scared to touch them, because I love how they look overall.

 

To me, the lips look great. It might be the nose that needs adjustment. Too long, maybe?

 

@Zardi you're probably right. I really love the shape though, I wonder if I could just carefully remove the whole thing without damaging it and just shift it up a little?

 

I've done this a few times (those pesky ears!!) , try using an x-acto knife to remove it carefully and stick it back using clay.

 

@LilaAIP I did it with his ears a few times too. But the nose...... That is way scarier! The ears were never that good, so I was never 100% planning to keep them, so I didn't care about the possibility of ruining them. When I have some free time today maybe I'll sit down and give it a go. I guess if it does get ruined I can always start again!

 

It's worth a try. It's a cute nose

 

Never be so scared to mess something up that you never get around to fixing it. If you have done something once you can do it again. The saying "kill you darlings" comes to mind. It is easy to get insecure and worry that "fixing" something will make it worse, but in this case, you are working with a material that can be altered as many times as you like. If the fist attempt doesn't work, just try again.

In other news:
The sculpting stage of Basils tentacle is finished! Now comes the part where my entire workspace has to be packed up before the move to the new place. That will probably be the scariest part of this project.
One I have settled in at the new house, I will start the mold making and casting, but that will probably not be until later this summer at the very earliest.

 

Well, he’s come a long way from when you started! It can be tricky to make ajdjustments when you’re more or less happy for fear of ruining it. I remember on one of my guys where I had to cut his ears off. I really was scared I’d ruin him, but I’m so glad I did now. His ears are much better!

 

Hey, guys.

I've been away for a few weeks from the forum because of school and stuff. I'm feeling a bit disappointed to find that we still have no merge, but either way...

I was talking to a friend about the process and materials used in doll-making. I expressed interest in experimenting with porcelain but I also said that I wasn't looking forward to buying a kiln. That's when he mentioned "Flumo."

Supposedly, flume is a type of air dry porcelain that does not require a kiln and it sparked my interest. I googled it and it sounds promising, except you can't get it wet.

I was wondering if anyone in here has any experience working with this material that they can share. I am kind of turned off by the fact you can't get it wet for it makes it seem like an inferior product. But I am intrigued by the fact that you don't need to heat it up.

What are you guys' thoughts?

 

Thanks everyone! I spent some time refining the lips the other day, and I'm wondering if just a little more might not make it turn out OK in the end, without needing to try removing things, so I'll probably keep at it for a little, until I absolutely think that taking the nose off needs to be the next step.

 

From what I've seen on their site, flumo is actually a casting material, and an alternative to resin. I don't think it 'll work as a sculpting material per se, but you can make a cast and work on it after it has dried.

 

Yeah, the sculpting would still have to be made out of some clay and then cast on this thing. I was exited for a minute but now I'm not too sure.

 

If cheaper, it may be a good alternative to resin, if you plan to make a first cast to work on details, before making/sending it for casting. Do you know how much it costs?

 

It

It's actually pretty cheap. You can get a one-pound bottle for like $38. I think you are right. It could be a good material for prototyping. Too bad you can't use it for a finished piece.

 

I think you can. The only problem is that it would be Off-topic on DoA.

 

Flumo can be used as a finished product, you just need to seal it with something. I've tried it and liquache both as tools to shrink a sculpt down several years ago for a prototype, I think I got up to 5% shrinkage with flumo, and a bit more with liquache. It can be tricky to cast complicated pieces though since you need to use plaster molds and take into account undercuts. I also found you lost a little bit of detail in the transfer process, but it's super easy to carve this back in and refine the casts with tools and water. I was also able to add mass back onto dry flumo/lqc with liquid flumo or paper/stone clay. It's a great tool to help with making masters for casting imo and fun to make some one of a kind artist items as well as long as you don't care about it being on topic on doa.

 

Interesting. What I thought of as a weakness can actually be a strength if exploited right... Either way, the idea of sealing it once cured never occurred to me.

Also, I find it a bit worrisome that certain materials for doll-making could be a no-go-zone on the doll-making forum. I understand for the rest of the site, but the fun part of making thing is really the research and development part, when you get to play around with different materials. Oh, well. I guess we have rules for a good reason.

 

Oh I don't think it would be off topic on the bjd making forum, I meant the rest of DOA. That's an interesting question though! Personally I wouldn't let it deter me from making a ooak flumo doll if I wanted to, I'd just post it to other places if wanting to share. Flumo/Lqc dollmaking is super fun to play around with and satisfying to make copies so quickly and easily!

 

It wouldn't deter me from using the material either. I would just find it very limiting for a forum about doll-making which would be quite a shame.
I remember reading on The Joint that the admin was even planning to allow Blythe and Monster High doll customizations. I think she was trying to gauge how interested people were in order to open a forum just for that. I mean, you can't really put arbitrary limits to creativity. Yes, constraints are good because they challenge you to find a solution, but being arbitrary for the sake of it is kind of pretentious IMO.

I think The Joint never got around implementing this because then came the merger, but it would have been quite interesting to see what that community would have come up in terms of customization of stock dolls.

A site about BJDs is about BJDs. I get that completely. Let's see what happens as far as the space for creators is concerned.

 

Has there been any progress on this? I've been posting my works in progress on Instagram but it still feels a bit... disconnected for me and staying involved with the bjd community amidst work and other things.

I'd love to share the pics, process, trials and tribulations of doll sculpting here with all of you