The Dollshe side of the Dollshe/Dollmore copy issue *translated statement page 27*

Because smart people can do stupid things too.

Its still too soon for me to pick sides and wave banners. I was very unhappy with Dollmore's response (mostly their explanation for the interchangeable parts and the internal markings), but maybe thats all they are allowed to say at this time. Right now my own opinions don't make any difference to anybody but me, so I'll leave it at that.

 

I've seen theh comparison pictures, and honestly, other then the next and maybe the sides of the chest, I can't really see any simularities. kyle definatly has differnt proportions and enough differences that I would not consider it a copy. and well, the defects inside, I don't know, but if two people were using simular methods to do the insides, it's entirely possible to get very simular defects.
that's my little two cents.

 

I understand some people may be feeling very hurt. But please understand you are not the only one. Please don't say insulting things, even if it's in a roundabout way.
Obviously there are some Dollshe fans who feel hurt about the 'copy'. But also Dollmore fans feel hurt by the attacks and also by the possibilty of being betrayed.

I really think we should all be working together here....Not forming opposing gangs. Please think hard about what you are doing. Is it the Dollshe fans fault if an 'attack' was made on Dollmore? Not at all!!! Is it Dollmore fans fault if Dollmore made a copy? Not at all!!!

I understand people are angry but be careful where you vent it and try not to hurt people needlessly. Because it will only make people for a bad opinion of the company you are trying to stand up for, won't it?

/plea]

 

Exactly. The fact is they do NOT have to be literal copies to violate copyright. Substantial similarity is usually the standard for copyright infringement. To me I feel the Kyle body meets that standard and the internal marks only add to the evidence against Dollmore, but I suppose it will ultimately be up to a judge or jury to decide that point after viewing all the evidence presented.

 

I read what people have to say about waving banners and whatnot, and I just had to mention this one fact: that banner down there? It does not in ANY way mean I'm not listening to what the other "side" has to say. But I am completely dissatisfied with their response, or should I say lack thereof. The fact that it was filled with shameless plugs about how great Kyle is didn't help at all. -o-;

That's also not to say I'm going to seek out and avoid everything having to do with Dollmore. I'll just continue my usual routine, looking at dolls and sculpts I like, not clicking on ones I don't.

That said, I will continue to support Mr. Ki-Yong, and I can only pray that his inspiration and confidence will return to him tenfold after this ordeal is over.

 

one thing:

there is nothing wrong with supporting dollmore

there is nothing wrong with supporting Mr.Dollshe

there is nothing, NOTHING wrong with supporting one love

and there is NOTHING wrong with supporting neither, or being indecisive, or just waiting for court, or just waiting period.

as long as we don't get hostile anyway.

 

Hmm... maybe I should have said "Because smart people can make mistakes too". Stupid is just what came to my head first, which was very stupid of me. And even though the quote was about Dollmore it could have easily been applied to Dollshe's behaviour towards this whole fiasco. I meant it as more of a general statement towards "Why would so-and-so do this if they knew it would..." remarks which come up a lot in these debate threads. People make mistakes (or maybe they don't as nothing has been proved by a third party yet). I am not a Dollshe fan or a Dollmore fan, up until now I've liked both companies. Actually I still like both companies.

I also dislike the divide, or what seems to be a divide, that is going on among the fans.

 

well, i consider it a "civil war" XD (kinda like the american comic, Civil war joke thing going on. but i guess no non-comic readers will get it)

the divide can't be helped. so might as well try not to be too hostile about it i think

 

If I was an innocent doll company, being falsely accused of selling a doll whose parts were copied/modefied from another company's work to such an extent that the internal accidental flaws are the same, the first thing I would do is take my own internal comparison photos to show the world.

That way, not only do I prove my innocence but also knock my opponent out for good both with a libal law suit and by destroying his reputation. Especially if I think it was serious enough to be called Cyber Terror

 

Things I am not sure have been discussed yet. I am worried that Mr Ki-Yong may be hurting his court case and we may be contributing. In a major doll forum these are alot of strong accusations that Dollmore could point to and call libel if they win their case. So I think we sould never call on a ban of Kyle or Dollmore dolls until the case is settled.

And we keep talking about the ART being stolen. Although dollmakers love these dolls and love making them- they do it so they can have an income- so they can eat and their employees can eat. SO every penny that we spend on a stolen design, is on we could have spent on the original, and is taking money out of Dollshe's pockets. People only have so dollars to spend on dolls, we shoud think about who worked harder for the money in this case. If Mr Ki- young spent hundreds of hours working on the HOund body, he also spent hundreds of hours working in the Kyle body without getting paid. How would you feel if someone was making money off your work?
Just something to think about.

 

Sometimes people get a bit insane about things they love. I have read some of these responses and thought, "whoa! down tiger!" because they were so reactionary, merely because you decided not to jump on the Dollmore Bashing Bandwagon. You have clearly stated that:

1. It is sad that this is happening.
2. You see differences in the dolls.
3. You love both dolls and both companies.

As for me, I also feel that it is unfortunate that it is happening. It's not for me to say "oh, that is or isn't a copy". That's for the companies and possibly a court to decide.

While unfortunate, this does NOTHING to dissuade me from purchasing a doll from Dollmore next week.

 

Thank you Miseri, for organizing your thoughts into a post that make sense of my OWN emotionalism towards this issue.

I appreciate your concise thought, and your post.

And here's hoping you love your new Bella as much as I love my TWO of em(what can I say, I am addicted to the Model girls) LOL

Clearly, I love these girls, and I am sure you will be utterly wowed and delighted by your own!

 

is it totally crazy to support both dollshe *and* dollmore; two companies that make the dolls that make us all so happy???

 

Well the comparison photos don't help Dollmore one bit. Neither does their open letter. Kyle looks so similar to the Dollshe body it's unbelievable. I am very, very disappointed in Dollmore and I think that's the last i'll say about it. I think i'm so disappointed because I loved Dollmore very much.

 

You're welcome, Gayle! I kind of consider you a 'net friend' simply because I enjoy your Avril so much...she's really helped 'tide me over'.

I cannot wait. I can't stop thinking about her! I get to finally order her on December 10th. It will be interesting to see how my girl turns out since she will be faced by me (I'm a makeup artist).

Anyway, BADRA and DOA will be flooded with pictures!

 

Well, the problem with this is that if a person believes Dollmore is innocent, they would be angry with Dollshe for wrongfully accusing them. And if a person believes Dollmore is guilty, they would be rightfully furious at a company passing off something unoriginal as their own, and what this does to the BJD market in general. So, it's sort of a lose-lose situation regardless of belief, and neutrality is difficult because mostly everyone on this forum is very passionate about the hobby, and the concept of stealing and bootlegs/copying is sensitive as it takes credibility away from the exclusivity and rarity, originality, of the market ^^

 

Oh gosh, thanks Miseri! Avril is a neat girl, and I am glad she inspires!

Back to topic, I have a few "what if thoughts"

What "If". things have proceeded in such a way, legally, that Kim Ki Yong, now regrets his decision to bring this all public.....

And then, what IF both sides regret horribly that they have hurt each others reputations, when they have previously been good associates, and now, need room to work that out.

What IF this is actually what is beginning to happen?

I for one would be pleased, if both companies ARE managing to work out their own resolutions, and, that it might be smoothe and fair to both.

You know, It IS possible........

 

That's a very nice sentiment Gayle, hopefully all will work itself out in the end. we're so far away from the whole deal and true most people here are passionate. But we need to stay objective and BELIEVE that only a higher autorithy than all of us her can settle this dispute.

I just wish this would all calm down so we can go back to thinking just about the love we have for our dolls.

 

I'm trying to be neutral in this whole thing especially not owning dolls from either company. I still say that what people see as dollmore seeming fishy and as though they are hiding something is just them not trying to get caught up in all the internet mess part of it.

and VinylFaerie supporting both is mainly being neutral with a care as to what ends up happening, like me. I hope just as much as anyone that this gets smoothed over as easily as possible becuase as people have said both companies are getting their reputations pulled down in this mess.

 

The suggestion that somehow the owner of the DollShe company is smearing his own name by pursuing what he believes to be a recast of his own doll sculpt is ludicrous.

 

Zagzagael, I think people are just thinking perhaps he's being unprofessional and it could make him look bad it court?

One thing that surprises me is the reaction to the dollmore pictures. Some people say that the differences show better in them, and others say that the pictures make them look more similar.
I think one big difference is how the shoulders are held and the curve of the back, I think those things would require lots of modification to achieve.

I don't want to take sides yet, to me it's silly. My opinion won't change anything.
I just support Dolls.

 

Playing devil's advocate here, but the only word we've got about Mr. Dollshe's "reign of cyber terror" and alleged harrassment (quotations for de-emphasis) are that of Dollmore, who is naturally going to want to portray their opponent as hysterical and unreasonable as possible whether the allegations are true or not.

 

Hey guys, I just received Mr. Dollshe's letter.

Erm... it's LONGER and.... with MORE diplomatic words.

And, because i took my time off working on Mr. Dollshe's response and Dollmore's, i'm 3 days late on my translation of this particular book.... (omg i'm not fired yet? wonder why .... coz i would fire myself if i were the editor XD )

So please give me... erm... a day? or so. I'll translate it as SOON as i finish this book, i promise ^^;;;;

until then, once again, please hold off on your thoughts, because... again I think Mr. Dollshe's words are pretty relative. ^_^;;;;

So, sorry for the anticipation and suspense.... I'm going back to work ^^;;; (don't hate me XD )

 

Rukawagf, there's no need to apologize! You're spending your free time on this and it's greatly appreciated. This drama can take a back burner while you get your real work accomplished.

Thank you for your translations so far!

 

Thank you so much for doing this again, Mr dollshe said on his email he is very grateful and apologizes for all the trouble that caused you, hugs

 

Has anyone taken a good look at these two bodies side-by-side?

A really good look?

Let's pay attention to size and proportion, shall we? From just a cursory glance at these bodies, for Kyle to have been sculpted over a Hound body, I believe the Hound body would need to be sanded down to nothing. The joints in the knees surely would have to be sanded completely off and resculpted - and though the elbow joint is similar, it too would probably need to be entirely reconstructed. The neck is smaller, which means Kyle's neck would have to be sanded and resculpted. The legs would need to be lengthened and resculpted.

It seems illogical for Dollmore to have taken all that trouble to sand down the body so entirely and resculpt. And even if they did, if they sculpted a new body and new joints onto what is essentially just a sanded-down, flat shell, is that really copying Dollshe's design?

The fact that the body would have to be so significantly sanded to be 'copied' makes me extremely suspicious of Mr. Dollshe's photos.

Also, I believe Ashbet's Mau head is very relevant. Whether she started making them with the intention to sell them or not, the fact remains that she cast and sold a significant number of heads for customers and charged for them. Yes, she did say outright that she sculpted them on another head for a base, but she still sold them. Just because she isn't a commercial entity doesn't mean she has nothing to do with the debate about sculpting over an existing frame.

I think it's very important to step back and realize how very, very different those two bodies really are, and what effort Dollmore would have to go through to 'copy' them, as Mr. Dollshe claims.

 

And take into consideration that the kyle doll Mr. Dollshe took photos from WAS tampered with to the simple fact he sawed parts and joints in half. Not saying he tampered with anything else.

Sawing it makes it irrelivant to measure the exact distances of the imperfections on the resins to see if they are indeed in the same exact locations.

 

sawed????????? where?

just in case

top left body: dollshe
Top right body: dollmore


Bottom left butt: dollmore
Bottom right butt: dollshe

 

Don't you see how the mid section of the torso where it connects to the hips had to have been sawed to take the bottom picture or else you would not see the blue cloth from the holes where the legs are supposed to be.

It's the second picture.

Edit: unless the second picture is a perfect downshot.??

 

got it. i understand now.

 

Someone had to say it

For me, unless Dollmore manages to come out with a REALLY good explanation of the exact inner markings, the closely copied chest, and the hands...I'm set *shrug* I don't need a court to make decisions I feel I can see for myself.

Has there been any news on the release of the other body? Pictures?

And yes, what of this previous 'Dollmore copied' thing? I'm curious.


Rukawagf: Please don't get yourself fired on ac**** of a dolly-feud. I'm sure such an explanation wouldn't go over well with your boss, though I'd love to watch the situation XD Thanks for taking your free time in translating these letters for us, regardless of if they spark more controvery or not. It really lends more than hearsay to the debate, and it crtainly takes a lot of effort on your part.

 

I didn't get the impression that those two particular photos had anything to do with the inside mold imperfections, I thought it was showing how similar their torsos and pelvic areas were.

 

Maybe I'm just bad with search, but I looked around for awhile and couldn't find a word about it. I suspect it's just talk, which so often happens in situations like these.

 

In terms of he smearing his own name, I just mean it looks like he got really hot headed, and when he goes to court dollmore could point to this thread which may be 40 or more pages by then and say "look how he damaged our company, all these people wont buy or product now". This could hurt his case. this is why lawyers advise they're clients to keep quiet until these things are decided in court.
I myself can understand the hot headed aspect, I myself would be screaming to the heavens if this happened to me.

 

Celebare said
"Has anyone taken a good look at these two bodies side-by-side?"

YES. PamSD, Hyon, my Husband and myself have examined both dolls together side-by-side. We really got a good look when we shot the comparison pics.

 

I have been buying from Dollmore since 2004 and have never heard a word about any supposed copying that occurred previously. I agree with you, I suspect it is just talk, or rumor that comes in handy to bring up in a topic such as this.

 

I believe these are just top-down shots. I can get similar photos with my SD13 body, which also has that type of jointing... and I've never cut him in half. I also don't think he would have cut the doll in half without disclosing it in his photos. Similarly, if this Kyle is the "evidence" that he intends to show in person at doll shows, I think he'll want it complete.

 

Wait a second...is he going to show these dolls at doll shows before it's decided in court? My gosh, how strange. That is either...hot-headed, or confident. If he loses, won't DM be able to take him to the cleaners in a defamation countersuit?

I have a question, though. Is all this smear campaign going on because the courts are slow to move over there and this is the only way that he feels he can get the company to stop making profit off of something that he sees as his? If he's concerned about copyright, why not just send a professional, legal cease-and-desist order and have DM stop production until the court date rather than throwing a hissy fit and letting popular opinion do his work for him? (Which doesn't work in all cases. A C&D order would stop the dolls completely.) Do those not exist in the relevant corporate law there?

 

This thread is going to be temporarily locked.

At this point, speculation is beginning to sound like pontificating and certain verbiage is wildly inaccurate in its use. We will re-open the thread as information and translations become available again.

Thank you for understanding.

 

I think only a person with relevant knowledge of Korean laws would be able to provide us with the answers to the excellent questions you've raised, Darkwood.

 

Huge thanks to Rukawagf for translating Dollshe's Notice again *huggles*

This was posted on his Dollshe Cyworld Club on Nov. 24, 2006

Hello. This is Dollshe.

I truly apologize for everything regarding the happenings with illegal sculpting copy accusation of Dollmore. However, this is a decision I took for the future of BJD to go forth in the correct path. How would you all like it if a doll was illegally customized just a little and pretended to be a new doll and sell for profit? Dollshe did not ever ask Dollmore money regarding the profit loss on Dollshe's part, and I would like everyone to know, Dollshe never took dollmore's kyle doll in masses. I am very hurt by the words of Dollmore, how they have switched and twisted many meanings. However like many BJD mass copy suspicions that arose before, I'm doing my best to have solid evidences, ( because if i release all the real hard evidences I have collected to the internet, I'm afraid that the Dollmore and other engineers will figure out ways to counter them, so I will only release these to the court and the jury ) and collecting as many documents as possible to win this lawsuit. The act of Dollmore's and Dollmore's sculptor's deception, to proudly selling a copied doll as if it's a totally new doll to the owners of dolls, by covering their facts, must be stopped.

This lawsuit is actually started with Dollmore suing Dollshe, so Dollshe will be the one defending. The last answer to solve this problem would be if Dollmore and Dollmore's sculptor who illegally sculpted and made a copied doll, would write a formal public apology to the owners of the doll and Dollshe. If they did this, Dollshe will not ask for any profit loss nor would Dollshe sue and go to court over this matter.

Dollmore has sued Dollshe for damaging their reputation, cyber terror, threats, and bothering their work place, however, through police investigation through my IP address, they'll find that Dollshe has never said any threats, nor curses to Dollmore. And of the damaging reputation, that will be solved once we go to court and we lay out the solid evidences.

And Dollmore, who is suing Dollshe over suspicion of reputation damage because of their untrue facts about Illegal sculpt copy, exactly WHY??? is Dollmore not being able to say straight forwardly to prove Dollshe's "untrue facts" as wrong about our suspicions of illegal sculpt copying? This is something we all want. It is because it IS a illegal sculpt copy and if the documents and evidences are given to the police, they know that the Dollshe's suspicion of Dollmore's boy body Kyle's body will not just be a suspicion, but truth. I have already collected the legal evidences against Dollmore's untrue facts and if Dollmore's assertion is proven wrong, Dollshe will do the same and charge Dollmore of their crime.

Because the BJD market is only 3 years old, the fact that there are no legal laws regarding the BJD will be a big disadvantage to Dollshe's side. However, Judicial precedent is not something that already exists, but created through series of trials. I think that perhaps the small problem that had pre-existed since th beginning of BJD have rotted and finally burst. And for the righteous and bright society and for the development for the BJD creators, no matter what the heavy cost, I believe that this is something I must stand and fight in the judicial system.


Because of this event, Dollmore's representative, Lee Eun-Young and I will have a legal dispute, but this will be the turning point and an important part in bringing order to the BJD's Market history. This has consumed a lot of economical and emotional damage but no matter how long this legal procedure will be, this is something that i must stand my ground for, is what I believe as well as many Korean original maker's combining opinions. I would like everyone to know that this fight is not for my own profit at all.

This fight is something I must win as a sculptor and as a right of a creator. If this ends as Dollshe's loss in court, then there will be no way to stop any illegal copies or illegal customs and there will be no stand for any Korean BJD anymore.

This BJD sculpt copying is something that must not be taken lightly. Again, I've said previously, that there is no profit in this if I go through the legal process. I will be waisting a lot of my time collecting evidences instead of working, and I must be going back and forth between Dae-Jun and Seoul, and I have been harassed with no grounds by many already. All the more so, I felt responsible to bring the truth to the world, and it has come to this situation.

because there is no BJD's Judicial precedent (translator's note: meaning there is no specific law regarding BJD yet, like books, music and clothing fashions do) the intellectual property right will be provided through Dollshe's evidence and documents and this will create the lawful offense and defense, and there is no guarantee that Dollshe will win this legal process. However if, because of my lack of evidence, and I happen to lose at court, then until the truth is known, I will prepare again with more evidences to go to court against Dollmore. I will bring truth to the world and I will create a new Judicial precedent to give strength to those hard working creators.

And of course, the economical and mental drain from this accusation and lawsuit will of course come from Dollshe's burden. However, I would like everyone to reflect upon Dollmore's Rep Lee Eun-Young's words, if it was moral for her to talk as if Dollmore's a victim of profit-driven fight between two brands on an international message board. (Translator's note: referring to Den of Angels and/or other non-Korean boards) I have already saved as evidence of the Dollmore's side paradoxical explanations where what they're saying are not matching up.

I believe that this will be a lonely fight where my life, and the Dollshe's life, will depend on it. This event has thought me harshly, that the law does not always raise the hand of victory to the righteous. Dollshe was planning to present a new body for Dollshe BJD after working vigorously on it for several months. I did not expect such an event to occur. I will be presenting the step by step of my work in pictures, from the beginning to the end of my creation for the first time. I would like everyone to know if this is not a BJD from the beginning made by hand with a lot of care, or not. Or is it a computer modeled doll made out of machines. The reason why there are Dollmore's suspicion on my part because of their reluctance to provide their evidences which will be a big disadvantage at court.

To all the community members, now the legal process is something that can not be avoided. Please understand that this is something that shouldn't be cast aside as unimportant. I, Dollshe, as a pride of any BJD sculptor, is doing my very best to collect as much evidences regarding this illegal copying. I know many are supporting me. Thank you all for those support.

even if the lawsuit of Dollmore's reputation damage makes Dollshe pay penalty fines, no matter how many fines i must pay, I will still show and bring the illegal copy body to everyone at every single chance i get to display them.

The truth must be told. If those in the community wants to set a time to meet to compare both bodies, I will make the time to come and bring them so everyone can compare for themselves if they are illegally copied or not.

If Dollmore's Rep Lee Eun-Young is willing, even now, to apologize and acknowledge that Dollmore's boy body Kyle is an illegal sculpted copy, in public, I'm willing to withdraw my lawsuit and charges against them. If the illegal sculpt copying is known through the court's final say, then I will do every possible lawful charges against Dollmore. Please I would like Dollmore to think rationally and not make this situation deteriorate more than it already has.

Lastly, to everyone in the community and to the other BJD market, I truly apologize for any worry or damage this has caused to everyone.


His original image notice:

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