Re-Releasing "Retired" Sculpts?

First of all I'd like to state that Breakaway's original release WAS a limited release of 200 dolls that sold out fairly quickly. He was never a standard model, therefore, he was never "retired".

1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?
In cases such as Masha ect as you've mentioned, Volks has never indicated they will NOT release many of their molds again. They may never release a certain limited run of that doll such as white cat chris or what have you, but they very frequently do release one offs of hard to find dolls, such as Masha at their dolpa events. I see nothing immoral about doing this, seeing as they never indicated it would not be made available agian in on incarnation or another.

2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics?

In honesty, it doesn't matter to me what people think of releleased dolls, such as the Luts Breakaway and the Elf El '06. I own an Elf El '06 and there were people who were VERY upset over his release because they felt that somehow he undermined their original release. With rereleases such as El and Breakaway, there are some minute differences. I think these are things that are important in helping original owners identify and remain pleased with thier original molds, and one hopes that those who purchased the rereleases did so because they wanted the doll, not because he was something that had been made previously unavailable to them, and now they had a chance to own a limited sculpt.

3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?When companies rerelease retired molds, it is almost ALWAYS in very small amounts, and sometimes the rerelease is different. One shouldn't feel cheated or that their doll is any less special because of this. I think basing your satisfaction on a doll on wether or not someone else can get one easily is a bit silly.

And a last, very small question: Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?
For some companies who have expressly indicated they will not release again and then DO, a level of trust is breached and of course there are people who get upset. Who wouldn't? As for companies who do not indicate these things, I feel that they may do as they like. They have not made promises they must uphold, and if others make assumptions and are then disappointed, I really feel like it is thier own fault for making those assumptions to begin with.

 

1) I'm guessing profit.

2) I have a second release Bermann doll, so I am pretty happy that I was able to get him at all. If owners of the original 77 were upset by the re-release, I'd be surprised because many of them bought additional Bermanns from Tensiya.

3) I would be delighted if more were released because I might want another one someday and I wouldn't be so paraniod about the one I have.

I have no opinion about what doll companies do; I would prefer for them to do whatever it takes to stay in business. If I like their products, I will buy.

 

I couldn't care less if doll companies re-release thousands of everything they ever retired (or "limited" or what you call it) since day 1. I'd be happy if they did it because everybody who wanted one would have a chance to get it and probably cheaper too. I don't care if it makes some of my dolls lose value. I didn't buy the dolls as an investment, I bought them because I liked them and not with the idea that "besides, I can turn around and make five grand off this by reselling it any time I feel like it."

Doll companies limit or retire or re-release so they can make money. I understand the business reasons why they do it that way. I hardly think the word "moral" applies, I save that word for important ethical questions of whether someone is using unfair labor practices or similar. It has no business applying to whether Luts or whoever releases ten thousand new Breakaways.

 

Depends on what you mean by profit....

I wouldn't just jump to "profit" right away. May companies re-release things because they know that... they have a new audience that would like to own the firsts (but will not pay the huge price for them) re-releases tend to be cheaper than the original ones (I'm not talking about dolls, but rather other things where the sittuation can be similar)
Now if you're talking about "overall" profit from all the sales... Then yes, it sure could be an ulterior motive.

 

Eh. I couldn't care less what they do or why they do it...

I don't buy my dolls as investments, and I don't go into it intending to re-sell them at some point for a profit. I buy them because I like them and want to keep them. Once they're here, I don't give a flying flip what Luts does with the sculpt. It in no way affects the way I look at my own dolls.

 

Sometimes customers make it known that they want a discontinued doll sold again. I don't think that is unfair to retail buyers of the previous release since the doll was not a limited. But I think it's a bit unfair for people who payed exorbitant resale prices for a rare but highly desirable doll.

Personally I like what Elfdoll did when they discontinued the 14cm tiny Elfdolls. They said that regular sales were discontinued but that they planned in the future to have limited re-releases - short time sales rather than limited quantity. They have done a couple of limited re-releases since then but the limited dolls have had new clothing and new faceups.

Carolyn

 

Personally? I believe the whole "limited" thing is nothing more than a money-making ploy by doll companies, and a successful one at that. I'm not begrudging them from trying this, it's good marketing. But at the same time, I'm not of the opinion that it is a wonderful thing for the fans of that particular sculpt. Sure, I'd love for some of these limited sculpts to be put out for more standard release (I'm looking at you, SD-16!). But I understand why the companies do it.

Retiring poor-selling sculpts to concentrate on more popular ones make sense, too. Bringing back a fast-selling limited for another run makes sense, too. As Carolyn.S said, customers will make their wishes known. Breakaway was hugely popular. AFAIK, CP never promised that it wasn't ever going to be released ever again, so who could blame them for bringing it back? Truth to tell, I sometimes wish that other companies would be as responsive to their target audience!

 

There are many, many, many Limited Edition dolls that are truly "retired." Whether or not a company then decides to bring them out of "retirement" is another point and the original poster has posited questions that make it seem, to me, that those of us who purchase LE dolls do so as an investment. That has not been the case for me and I've owned plenty of LE dolls. The CP dolls I've owned that have had limited production runs, the El Elf, Woosoo, and Breakaway were so coveted, so wanted, that I was thrilled when CP re-released the Breakaway and the Elf....

 

So, given that most of the people on this thread have said they don't give a darn, don't like their own dolls any less when a re-release happens and don't buy dolls as an investment, who is this "General Populace" of whom you speak?

 

Just a note- it seems to me that instead of thinking of dolls as investments that have lost money, people who get upset by re-releases are often upset because either

a) their doll was unique because they were a rarer sculpt- if the forum becomes "flooded" with that sculpt then their doll may get lost in the crowd, as it were. You can see this even with non limited and readily available dolls, like the "just another El" factor.

b) they paid a lot more on the secondhand market and now the doll is available for purchase again for the original retail price- in fact it may even come on a better body, with a tweaked resin mix, etc. I have to admit I'd be a bit miffed if I spent $500 on something and then a new improved version went on sale for $250 after I bought it, it's human nature in a way (remember the iPhone price drop hubbub?).

I won't get into my feelings on limiteds, retired dolls, etc. as I've said it all before elsewhere.

 

Nah don't worry about it, I just wondered if you had another thread or convos at meets or something where this was generally expressed.

I suspect that people may not want to pop right out on a board like DoA and say that they feel cheated and love their doll less because he's not so "unique" anymore now that he got all re-released. And other people may not want to admit that they don't like the price drop if they were thinking of selling the doll down the line, or of keeping that doll as their hedge against bad times. I don't doubt that some people feel those ways though whether they will admit it or not.

 

Money does have to come into it. I know I would be upset to buy a doll on the secondhand market for a ton of money only to have the company re-release the doll, which would of course de-value it. It doesn't matter if you ever intend to sell it. It matters that you just paid two times retail for something that suddenly drops rapidly in price.

That being said... a doll like...say... Volks Cecil has been released like 4-5 times now and they all still hold their value just fine. Its not so plentiful a rerelease that the demand is gone.

When a company does a re-release for whatever reason they are setting a trend for themselves as a whole though, and so I think people willl expect that company to continue to rerelease molds previously retired eventually in some form in the future. So, patience wins the day.

I think that one of the reasons this hobby /is/ so attractive to many people is that, most of the time, you can recoup your investment and the dolls /do/ hold their value. It feels much less like spending money and much more like just holding the money in a different artistic form. They are as good as cash. Unlike...say...my box of Precious Moments figurines in the attic, all Limited Edition of course, that are worth a grand total of $11 collectively, even though they sell for $20-$50 in the store when they were purchased. They are utterly worthless.

Some people may say it doesn't matter what the dolls cost vs what they are worth, but I think it is one very large attraction to this hobby and artform to know that you didn't just put $800 down the toilet, you just relocated the $800 into a doll that's still worth that.

 

I have been collecting dolls with my Mom since as far as I can remember and I have seen so many popular dolls being discontinued ("retired") and though it makes those dolls more valuable and drives their prices up, it just brings all the greedy people only after investments out of the woodwork and deprives those that really really love and want the doll from getting them at a decent price if at all.
There are some dolls like that for sale here and I've seen them on eBay too.

So, I find it great when a doll is rereleased, though a lot of times the quality is not the same, meaning it goes down, or the sculpt is not the same.

 

See, I don't doubt that you're right about that being attractive to people. It personally annoys me though because of what Dollyface said about it bringing a certain "element" out of the woodwork.

I buy a good deal of art and for most of it, I know I will likely never get my "investment" back. In other words, there's a relatively small pool of people interested in the particular artists whose works I buy. Maybe I could sell the piece to another deep-pockets buyer, but also, maybe not because there's a little pool of deep-pockets buyers and in a couple of cases I pretty much know them all and we hang out...and while all of us are lucky enough to be able to afford some pieces of a certain artist's work, none of us could just up and buy it all, nor would we want to. We buy pieces that are meaningful to *us*. Part of why we do it is to support a particular artist (also a friend of ours).

Contrast this with somebody buying a big piece of art by some very famous artist whose stuff is guaranteed to hold its value, and the type of people who buy that type of art. I don't doubt that some of them enjoy the art to some degree, in terms of enjoying looking at the piece hanging on their wall, but there are just as many people whose enjoyment of it is because it is worth X amount of dollars. And if you're somebody who really enjoys art for art's sake, too much talk about X dollars is really going to get on your nerves, just like the constant harping about doll values gets on mine. I have to remind myself that the money is important to some people and for me to be patient with them, but it really is jarring when you're truly in it for love of the doll, to hear people going on about being able to get their 600 dollars back or whatever. Sometimes you almost wish the doll market would totally tank like your Precious Moments market just so the people who seem to overemphasize money would get out of the hobby.

 

Honestly, while it may look attractive as an investment now, I don't think these dolls are the best thing to sink your money into. Investment-wise, over the long run it is very risky. The market still too new, so there hasn't been enough time to track trends, or see if these "investments" have staying power. No one knows how well these dolls will hold up. We've already seen yellowing issues. Not to mention, it's such a niche market, completely run by small independents. Who's to say which companies are still going to be here next year, much less the years after that? Same thing for big name faceup artists. A hot name today might not be so bankable tomorrow.

True, there are dolls that are going for $$$ right now, like the Bermann. But I have also seen high dollar dolls tank horribly. The tan Lishe comes to mind. Unoa is another. For a hot second, they were selling for 3 or 4 times their original retail. Now the market has settled down and they aren't going for as much. Still higher than retail on the 2nd market, but it has decreased. As people get more comfortable with the way Alchemic Lab does releases and get more Unoas, the prices will drop further still. These dolls aren't sure bets. Best to buy 'em because you think they're beautiful and you'd love to have it, not because they seem like money in the bank.

 

Personally I think it's great when companies re-release "retired" or "limited" dolls. I know it debunks their value and yada yada yada, but it also means people who really want the doll but can't afford to pay the insane prices on the secondhand market (like me ) get a chance at owning the doll too. That's one side of it.

On the other hand, it's foolish to say that money doesn't matter - in a hobby like this, it's a huge driving factor. As much as I love my doll, I do like to think that if I end up in dire circumstances, I can sell him and buy some food instead (though he's not a limited - but if I did own a limited...). That being said, though, I am also one of those people who believe limiteds are money-raking farces put on by companies to earn some extra cash. So I'm sitting on the fence.

 

I'm really of two minds about this. On the one hand I don't think it's fair to the people who bought the original doll thinking that it was their only chance to get it. Often they had to make sacrifices to get the doll at the moment of release. And it being limited sort of makes it special.

But then again it's very nice for those who because of lack of funds or simply not yet being into this hobby when the doll was originally released, to have a chance at a long dreamed of doll.

As far as a companies reasons, well if they didn't believe they could make a profit they wouldn't do it. Manufacturers are in business to do just that, make money. I do however think it can also be a favor to fans especially in a case like that of Latidoll's Adel. There never was a chance to buy him, only win him & it was nice of them to do a limited release for those less than lucky people.

I suppose that from a possible investment point of view it might decrease the value of the original doll but as I don't think of dolls as investments, it doesn't worry me. It may, however, bother someone who had a special attachment to the doll partly because it WAS limited & having one was a extra treat.

In the end, it personally doesn't bother me & it doesn't change my appreciation of the company unless they specifically said that there would be absolutely no more of that doll ever released. Then it's a case of lying & my level of respect for them would drop considerably. I appreciate the chance to get a doll that I originally missed & would only hope that it wouldn't upset the owners of the originals.

 

Much like comics, dolls are a collectible. If they re-release a run of comics, it does not devalue the original, as there are still differences between the two.

When you purchase any product, you take the chance that it will be later improved on, re-released, or altered - any product, not just dolls. If you pay enormous second hand prices, for anything, which later turns out to be a mistake, that is not the company's issue, it is yours. This has nothing to do with morality, it's simply a business move.

I know that in dolls people tend to invest a lot of emotion into the product, which muddies the issue, but if we were talking about Ikea chairs people wouldn't be nearly so up in arms. Likening it to another product entirely helps, I think, people to understand just why it's so silly to get so angry at a company for re-releasing their own supply as the market demands.

 

Atsuhiko, excellent post.

I was just thinking about a local furniture company that had a limited release run of furniture two years ago. They just re-released the furniture with small improvements for another limited run. Not one person got up in arms about it not being "fair" that now their older furniture was "devalued" -- and no one claimed their older furniture was now "not as good" because it didn't have the improvements.

Limited releases happen in every hobby and business known to man. There is never a guarantee that what you are buying will never be run again (unless the company specifically uses those words). And the company certainly does not owe it to anyone never to improve their products in order to avoid making past buyers feel unhappy with the products they bought. Heck, businesses intentionally try to get buyers to purchase more, and what better way than offering an incentive than an improvement to the design?

As an owner of two limited dolls, I can honestly say I don't give a whit about how many are out there, who else has been allowed to obtain one, or whether or not the designs might be improved and re-released in the future. I bought these dolls because I liked their design, not because I was desperate for bragging rights and the feeling of being a special snowflake. If they were made standard tomorrow I wouldn't care -- even if they were made substantially cheaper. When I bought them, I decided it was worth the cost to me to own them, and they have made me happy. That won't change just because someone else got a better deal than me. If it did, that would mean it was never about the dolls in the first place -- it was about feeling superior to others.

 

I agree with this and the previous post 100% Its just because we are not comparing them to other products that we get so touchy.

Though i feel bad for those who made investments, this is the same as any other collecting hobby except with more money involved. If i were buying beany babies ( and i did) and saw one on ebay for 9 times the market value (remember the $60 beanies in mint condition? v_v) then its my mistake if they are suddenly brought back by the company and the price plummets. Its was a bad investment on my part.

any company has the right to do what it wants with its ideas. If it decides to change or tweak them and bring them back into the market after a time, more power to them. Its their idea.

But, if i company says they will 'never' bring a sculpt back in specific terms then that is false advertising and bad buisness. Its just unethical for any buisness to do that to its customers.

 

Very well said!

 

I'm going to agree with the previous posters on this page who point out that rereleases are nothing to get up in arms about. Even if a discountinued doll is not released again, there is still no gaurantee that it's value will rise--bjds don't make reliable investments. Its far far better to buy a doll, because you love the sculpt and just forget about the money. Companies also need to make money to survive, and bringing back a popular sculpt that collectors are asking for is a good way for them to do that. They aren't responsible for what happens on the secondary market.

I see it like this: I paid a chunk of money for my Kawainino Anna head back before Ninodoll started selling heads again. A few weeks ago I saw an Anna head in the marketplace for considerably less than I paid, since there have been several order periods for Ninodoll in the past year. I'm not upset that I spent the cash on my Anna head, though--I love her dearly and feel like the happiness I get from having her far outweighs the price I paid.

 

Exactly. That is the MAIN REASON I got into this. If I buy a doll for $800, I can sell her for $800 tomorrow or next year (usually). That takes a lot of the pressure off for me and makes the hobby more "do-able."

Also, while I admire you people who aren't so petty and shallow, I do like have a doll that is limited or hard to get (even if no one else but me likes that mold anyway). When Volks re-released Tinatsu, I felt as if my own lost something since, right now, I cannot get what I paid for her. And that is only an example of "re-release" since Volks never said they wouldn't release her again (I just assumed they wouldn't given their past yo history...). Once a company says a doll is retired, the price changes. To turn around a few years later and change their mind is unfair for people who "bit the bullet" and shelled out hundreds or thousands. If the company just says "we aren't currently thinking about making this mold anymore," that's one thing. Saying "she/he is retired" is another. You force buyer then into the secondhand market and then turn around and reward people who didn't purchase at all.

that's just me...

 

To politely debate this point: No one "forces" the buyer anywhere. People who don't purchase at all generally have simply made a decision that they're not going to pay the secondary market price.

I know people often say they "can't afford" those prices and perhaps in some cases, especially where the price has really gotten astronomical or the person is pretty broke, that is literally true. But a lot of times when people say "can't afford" it is shorthand for "not willing to pay" because, let's say secondary market price is 2000 dollars, you'll see people turn around and spend that much total on a variety of other items - either a few other cheaper dolls, clothes for them, or some other aspect of their life like a vacation or camera equipment or whatever.

And there are people who are very honest and say "Hey I am simply NOT going to pay four or five or ten times whatever that doll cost when it came out. I would rather just not have the doll than pay those inflated/scalper prices."

And there are still other people who happily cough up the extra money because they really want the doll and have the money to spend. In doing so they KNOW they are taking a chance that they will lose money on that deal, either because (a) the sculpt could get re-released, (b) the sculpt could simply lose value for a variety of reasons - less popular over time or too many flippers flooding the market, or (c) the doll could get damaged or destroyed or lost in some fashion that you would have a hard time recouping what you spent on it. Sometimes you can't insure things for full value or it doesn't cover everything.

People who buy a secondary market limited doll often do not care about a or b or c. They just love that sculpt and they want one. I'm not saying everybody who cares about the ability to get their money back is shallow, nor am I saying everybody who plunks down secondary market price for, say, a Ryu or Breakaway when it was unavailable is perfectly happy with the idea that the doll then reappeared for cheaper. But a lot of people are OK with it.

I know I overpaid for my Wishels and could have got them cheaper if, for instance, I'd waited till Pukis came out and everybody wanted them instead. Do I care? Not particularly. I wanted some Wishels and wanted to get that want out of the way right then.

Am I upset that I paid secondary market price for a Breakaway? Nope. I like the boy I got, and I figure that freed up another Luts re-release Breakaway for someone who wanted it and couldn't or didn't want to pay the secondary market cost. Plus, Luts' ordering is so wonky I was just as happy to pay extra to someone I could rely upon to actually send me the doll in good shape without a hassle.

In short, a lot of us who play the secondary market for limiteds do so with eyes wide open and an understanding of whatever "risk" is involved. I think you would be kind of silly not to.

 

Being honest, I don't think there should be much of a fuss over re-releases of "retired" molds at all. It is a business move after all. No matter what wonderfully happy images one has of doll companies that make one think that they are in it to please the customer and really give them something they can take home and love, doll companies are in the business because they know they can make money.

If they only make 20 of a certain doll in the entire world and they notice that these dolls are selling for $2000 on the 2nd hand market a few years down the line, why wouldn't they make a few more for a limited time? It draws more attention to their site as well.

If people hear about some legendary doll being re released they visit the site and also catch glimpses of the other dolls there. So even if they don't go for the re-release of the limited they have a chance at settling for one of the other dolls on the site.

I wouldn't complain much at all if a company were to release something I paid for in the 2nd hand market. Because I got what I wanted and when I wanted it. I also got one of the originals. Which does mean a little more to me than getting the re-release that everyone and their cat will have.

I am waiting for a re-release right now. Apparently there were only 10 in the world before now. I couldn't even find one on the second hand market. I don't think it's bad for me to want him and buy him. I'm thankful the company wants to make more of him.

I'll admit to being a good bit disappointed if I just paid $2000 last week for a limited only to have the company re release him/her for $699 only this week. In fact, I'd be plain pissed off. But somehow, I doubt it happens that quickly very often.

 

I say they are "forced" because if they choose to purchase the doll then, yes, they are "forced" to use the second hand market. That's fine, dandy, and cool when you enter into that realm aware of the facts. I would be MAJORLY turned off a company for good if they announce Doll X, originally $599, was discontinued, I buy it (if I LIKE the doll and can't get the doll from the company of course I am going to try secondhand market) for $2200 off Yahoo Japan a year later, and then two months after that the company changes their mind and brings Doll X back, but, you know, with different eyeliner. I don't CARE about EYELINER or something petty like that so it is not like comic books where there are slight differences in the paper used. If a company says a doll is discontinued and then "changes their mind," that would be like me promising to pick someone up from the airport and changing my mind. It’s like changing your mind after we all came to an understanding. I am not MAD you decided to discontinue that mold, you have your reasons I am sure, but be professional and stand by your decision.

This, again, is COMPLETELY different from a company who is known to re-release molds and "sells out" of a doll only to re-release him or her later. I am thinking of, for example, Volks who never said Sasha or Momoko were "discontinued" but we the fans assumed we'd never see them again. Some people pay $3000+ for a Momoko on Yahoo Japan and just a few weeks ago Volks announced they were re-releasing (ish) Momoko for $900. They NEVER said the doll was discontinued so I think most of us are elated. Had they announced years ago that they would never release Momoko again and we never saw the head pop up on one-offs, I think some people would be a bit...less thrilled.

 

If someone is using the secondary market, then that is the chance they take. That is their decision to make with their money, and they need to consider the fact that for whatever the reason the doll they shelled out all that money for might not go for that price down the road. The secondary market is completely buy at your own risk, and if people aren't willing to take that risk, then they should stick with buying non-LEs directly from the company. No one is forced--yes if they really really want the doll they will have to pay whatever the price is at the time, but they can always choose not to buy the doll. It isn't a life or death situation. If people really believe that these dolls make sound investments, all it takes is a little research (which they should be doing anyway as these are expensive items) to disabuse them of that notion.

You compare the decision to discontinue a sculpt has having an understanding with hobbyists. Which hobbyists? Yes there are those that purchased the doll thinking it may not be rereleased, but then there are hobbyists who might have lobbied the company to rerelease that very sculpt. Decisions over whether to keep a sculpt discontinued or not have nothing to do with some kind of deal or understanding. Its the company's decision to do what they feel best serves them and their customers, and as evidenced by this thread, rereleasing isn't necessarily all that upsetting to a lot of people.

 

If "retired" dolls can be re-released, and "limited" is a nebulous quantity or time frame, it begs the question why companies apply the labels at all. The obvious answer from a marketing standpoint is that provokes an impetus to buy in a timely fashion rather than risk losing an opportunity to purchase the doll. As such, there is a bit of fraud being perpetrated on the consumer, if, in actuality, the buyer is not limited to purchasing the doll at retail now, but will have more opportunities in the future when the retiree reincarnates. From my personal standpoint, the whole concept of "limited" or "retired" proves to be annoyance factor in purchasing the dolls I want. I collect a doll because I love the artistry of the doll, and the number of copies, or the investment value are not issues for me. I hate the pressure of competition to purchase dolls that are released in a limited quantity. I am frustrated knowing that a doll I love will never be mine because the secondary market cost is too guilt provoking to consider. So since limited is an idea, and retirement is not permanent, may I again put forth a motion that Bermann be re-released. :-D

 

Well, from how i see it. I like the idea of re-releasing limiteds. I mean. I don't think they are in any fault, they are limited in the fact that you just can't order one at anytime. Recently Luts stopped making Tan dolls. I don't know for how long, but if someone just joined the hobby and wanted a tan Delf they would have to look on the second hand market. Now, right now that doesn't seem to bad but in a few years, if Luts doesn't release anymore. Their prices will go up.

And for those of you that don't know, most of the tan delfs weren't limited.

I do understand how it can seem unfair if you have a doll that is limited and worth thousands and suddenly the company that made him/her comes out with their mold again and now your doll isn't as much in price. But the way i feel about it is that I love my dolls because of their mold, not their worth.

I for one want a Luts Breakaway, and BOTH times he came out i couldn't get him due to financial misfortune. Hopefully someday I will be able to get him, second hand or not. But i want him because of his mold, not his limitedness. In fact i don't even like the new breakaway, i want to wipe his face and get face up closer to the original!

 

Can I ask about those of us that didn't know BJDs existed prior to recently? An example would be with me. I am waiting for a re-release of a Soom Tanning Godo that happens in two weeks. This is my dream doll. When he was released the first time I didn't know anything about this hobby, and didn't even know the Soom company existed and I missed out on him, and apparently they only made 10 of him IN THE WORLD, and I thought he was gone forever.

It wasn't that I didn't decide to buy him then. I didn't even know he existed. I didn't even like dolls at the time. So how could is this rewarding someone who didn't purchase him? I didn't have the chance.

I wasn't there, I didn't know, and there's NO WAY to find him on the 2nd hand because there are only 10 in the world. So, I'm not allowed to have him, just because it disadvantages a few people or makes them a little upset because they aren't the only ones that have him in the world anymore?

If you paid $3000 for him on the 2nd hand and then you find out that he's being re released, oh well. Like everyone's been saying, it's a risk you take. When using the second hand. We have no idea when the companies may decide to make more, if they even do.

Remember the companies are in it to make money. If they make money by re-releasing and disadvantaging a few that may or may not even be direct customers of theirs for a greater profit, then so be it. It's their product they really can do what they want with it.

Besides, saying "We don't have plans for releasing him/her in the future" should never lead to the assumption that they're saying in really bad english "LIMITED: WE'RE NEVER RELEASING THIS DOLL EVER AGAIN" unless it says "Limited".

 

Of course, if you buy off the secondhand market you are taking a chance. Many chances. A ton of chances. So many chances that aren't even addressed in this topic. My point is, if the company states that a doll is retired and then decides to "un-retire" the doll after "telling" me they aren't going to make it and I want it (and there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing BAD about wanting a doll and buying it pre-loved), I feel lied to. If a company thinks they might bring the doll back, just say you are currently sold out and leave it at that. It's ambiguous.

Sometimes it helps to apply this to something else...let me think. Okay. Some people are REALLY into cars. If a Mercedes Benz sells a car and says "this car will only be made this year. This is SUPER limited. We will NOT be making this car again, EVER!" and 50 people shell out an insane amount of money both to the company and the second hand market, do they have the right to be miffed when next year the company says "LOL, just kidding. Nah, that car will be made every year from here out and in more colors."

On the other hand, if the car is really limited, I am sorry for those who fell in love the car after the fact, but that is life and happens in every hobby. My dad is a biker and loves a particular style of bike more than his only daughter. () The bike, however, was very limited and created before he was born. Is that not fair? Should Harley remake it? No. That's life. That's is why he searches auction sites around the world every two weeks just in case.

I respect and admire a lot of you who aren't effected by a doll's rarity or value, but some of us are. Think about stamp collecting. Some people just think any stamp is cool, and that's perfectly admirable, but some people are just nuts and spend all their life on Ebay trying to find that upside-down Wright brothers stamp. Some things that are rare and valuable have more appeal to some people. That is why this hobby is so great. There are lots of standards out there and re-releases so most of us have a chance for our "dream dolly" but there are some "holy grails" to strive for. It cheapens the quest for the Holy Grail, for some, if the Holy Grail is ava at your local 7-11.

And, again, I am not justifying ASSUMPTIONS here. The debate topic is when a company SAYS a doll is retired, and we believe them to honor their word, what are our feelings on them re-releasing a RETIRED doll, not just a limited edition of a mold they happened to sell out of and never made a comment on. For me, it’s lying and I don’t like liars. Like I tell my students, if you’re chewing gum and I call you on it, don’t lie. Go spit it out. I’ll be even MORE upset if you say you aren’t chewing gum and five min later you blow a bubble.

 

O.o Well, it's also just life when they re-release. Besides it's not like they'd be made available regularly. I would think if it was limited in the first place, wouldn't it be limited again during the re-release? If the "Holy Grail" was to be mass produced and put in as the "7-11" type of doll, one would think that'd be a bad business move on their part.

Limiteds have something that makes them limited. Whether it be clothing, resin, or face up, it's something they don't want to or can't mass produce. If they tried to do so they'd probably wind up losing more money than they'd gain if everyone and their cat started buying the HG doll rather than his/her non-formerly-limited form.

Also, not everyone wants to go on an epic never-ending quest for the Holy Grail, some people would like to actually have an end to their quest while they have a means of bringing it to an end. It may not be the most glorified quest out there, but it still brings satisfaction. I think people who bought the originals only lose out if it becomes a regular item. . . it's just a re-release for what's usually just a short period of time.

 

Well, do you get upset when you buy a stock that's supposed to go up and instead the company president gets accused of fraud and the stock goes down, down, down? It's the same thing. If you are going to get upset with a doll company bringing back a doll, don't patronize that company, or don't buy so-called "limited" dolls, or at least don't spend 2200 dollars on them, wait until you can adopt one from a friend for say 750 dollars, then you will not be "out" as much money.

edited to add, if I can quote something else that I have been told in relation to stocks: if you want to play on the stock market then write $5,000 on a piece of paper, then tear it up and flush it down the toilet and see how you feel. Dolls, same deal: if you want to spend $2,000 on a limited doll that retailed for $500, then write $1500 on a piece of paper, tear it up and flush it and see if you still want the doll after that. If the answer is "yes" then buy the doll.

I hate to sound harsh because I'm sure sympathy is more with your view, but again, if you're going to go on the secondary market and drop big money on a limited doll, you're taking a chance. Deal with that fact, or live without the doll. Don't blame doll companies for a decision that YOU made based on the information that you knew could change any minute.

Edited again because I forgot to say, this Holy Grail approach to collecting in my view is really silly. If a doll is your dream doll it should be because you love it. Not because it's super rare and limited. Most of the limiteds aren't that much better than the standards quality-wise. If they weren't all limited people wouldn't be killing themselves to get them. Don't fall for that stuff when you're picking grails to want.

 

I agree with Bunnydots. I like the idea of loving a doll because you love it, not for its value. I just wish my other dream doll had a regular version -_-

 

If the doll was never limited to begin with, I especially don't see the need to be upset about it. The orginal intention behind the doll would be that it was readily available, so making it readily available again is different how? Would most non-LEs even jump up that high in price that quickly? Instead of lying, could it be more a matter of changing their mind as circumstances change?--just because you don't like something (in this case rereleases) doesn't mean that there's actually anything nefarious going on. Saying they are discontinuing doll X does not mean they're creating some kind of binding contract with hobbyists that says they can never change their minds.

If you're more into a doll, because you see it as being rare and/or valuable that is your choice, and yes there are many different ways of looking at dolls and being involved in the hobby. However, if you feel one of your dolls is suddenly lacking because it was rereleased, that's much more your personal issue than anything having to do with the company. Its not the company's job to make you love your doll more, that is something that is entirely up to you.

 

QFT, even if that was directed partially at me

That's exactly why I want mine. Because I want and love him, not because he's rare. I didn't know he was rare until after I found out about the re-release and stumbled on a review that said there were only 10 of him , proof of the fact

Aside from that, I do think we've driven the point home a whole lot about the second hand market being a risk that everyone that chooses to purchase a "retired" limited after they become unavailable has to take if they still want the doll and don't want to wait for a possible re-release.

It isn't really anyone's fault that the prices rise with the demand for those limiteds, so is it really a bad thing for the demand to be relieved a little bit with the re-releases? I doubt many really lose out on re-releases, because not too many people shell out more than $1000 on most "pre-loved" dolls (as far as I've seen), and that scenario where someone would pay $3000 for a doll then have it re-released a month or so later is kind of doubtful.

I don't know that many would go into a deal like that, knowing that they may be flushing some big money down the can.

 

First of all, just like bunnydots said, you shouldn't buy a doll only because it's super limited and the holy grail of the hobby. If you do that, it's a waste of money, even if you found a very good deal.
I couldn't care less if the limited dolls I own were to be re-released. I didn't buy them to brag about it, I loved their faces. If gomidoll decided to sell Iru again, I'd be very glad. Now there are only a handful owners on this board and I would like to see him more often. And if I see how some people desperately want a certain mold, than I'm just happy for them if they get a second chance to get it.

I so agree with you here. We're not entitled to get a specific limited mold. The companies will not look at us and think.. oh, that poor Silk wants one of our limiteds só badly, let's re-release it, just for her.
I loved gomidoll Iru and because there are only a few them I thought I'd never get one. But I was very lucky to have a friend who wanted to sell hers. Same with elfdoll K-ss... I spent most of my time in the marketplace and with the help of a few very friendly people there I own him now.
The doll that got me hooked on BJD's; Kanon Louis, I haven't found him yet. But once I will, I will do whatever I can to get him home.
Getting a doll that's rare isn't impossible, but it will take a lot of your time.

 

Quoting Bunnydots: "Well, do you get upset when you buy a stock that's supposed to go up and instead the company president gets accused of fraud and the stock goes down, down, down?"

Well, actually, yes. (Witness the Enron debacle. . .but, true, part of the panic there was the employee investors' fault for putting a substantial chunk of their retirement dollars in company stock.) And, yes, any investment speculation is a crap shoot, but it is at least a somewhat educated crap shoot on the assumption that you are given a true set of facts by the company.

I do not see dolls or collect dolls as an investment, so I'm not even entering investment potential into the equation of interpreting a doll company's statements. I do think it is disingenuous to assert that when a doll company announces that a doll is retired that this does not or should not affect buying decisions. People are more likely to buy sooner forecasting a lack of availability of the doll in the future. Perhaps, they put off buying another doll to buy the retired one (and, this, then affects another doll company's revenue.) Perhaps they resign themselves to buying on the secondary market--and, yes, this always an economic risk, but, you can't say they have no right to be annoyed that they went to the secondary market and were parted from more of their dolly dollars under a false set of assumptions.

Words do have meanings, maybe some are more nuanced, but others are more definite. "Retired" to me, in the doll sense, means "done, finito, not coming back, buy me now or chase after me later." If they don't have meanngs, and we are meant to spend the day parsing, then why apply them at all?

 

Of course, we're not entitled to have a re-release, but if the company that makes Kanon Louis had a re-release for a short period of time would you be upset by it?

Besides, if the company never said the doll was limited and enough people asked about it I'm sure they probably would re-release it if there was good money to be made OR they'd just put up a bulletin that said "Stop asking, it's not coming back". One or the other.

Indeed it is time consuming to go for that rare doll, some people just can't devote all that time. Not because they're lazy, not because they don't want it bad enough, but because they just can't. Suppose they want a doll with only 20 in the world. There are 6 billion people scattered across the globe, what are the chances that one of those 20 people is on DoA and willing to sell?

The searcher can't speak or read Japanese, Chinese, Korean, or whatever language the owner uses to auction/sell their doll, so their resources are limited. Sometimes it's harder than it seems.

Ex. If someone was selling one of those dolls online in Serbian doll site. How would you find yourself on a Serbian marketplace? Especially since you don't speak Serbian.

You would have to wait until that doll floats into a realm where you actually could get your hands on it. And, there's always the chance that after all this time those dolls may have found permanent homes or have been damaged in a way that makes them unsalvageable, making your quest literally endless.

Say there's one floating around the world, lots are looking for him, 5 have been messed up through accidents or are sitting in someone's basement, forgotten about (ex. the owner dies and the doll is put in storage with the rest of the owners belongings) either thrown away or just not for sale, and the other 14 have found permanent homes where the owners won't want to sell him/her ever.

I don't think I'm taking this too far, this is what really happens with limited items. This is the kind of endless quest I'm talking about. With all the time spent embarking on this quest no matter how much you want the doll, it may not be worth it if you finally get it.

Kind of like the story of the man who traveled all over the world looking for this one kind of soup after searching for most of his lifetime when he finally found it again he didn't want to eat it.

 

I don't know, with Retired dolls a lot of time when they re-released them, not only are there a limited supply but they tend to look different, whether it face up or outfits. But limiteds, that get brought back can be the same or different.

If you ever ask about a mold specific limited they usually tell you "We don't plan on re-releasing" That doesn't mean "We are not bring back such and such"

 

This is very true. I don't think that many doll manufacturers ever said, "we're not re-releasing this sculpt, ever again." The only one I can come up with right off was the Bermann, where Anu has said that after her run, they aren't going to be produced again.

 

No, I wouldn't be. Just as I wrote I'd be very happy. But until that time comes I'm not going to be angry because it wasn't fair I could never buy him directly from that company.

As for the super-rare dolls, I can speak from experience that there ís a chance you'll find one. I'm not sure exactly how many gomidoll Iru-HS's were sold, but I do know it was a véry small number. And most of them were sold in Japan, so I could forget about those. I think that 80% of those dolls would never leave their owner. But that still leaves 20% that dó. If you go for it, you'll get one, especially because most people who want one will use arguments like you just did and give up.
A friend of mine got another rare doll (Seimei) after a two year search. So, by these experiences, I do not believe that there are many dolls that are impossible to find.

But, if the company would re-release your dreammold I'd just go for it. It would save you a lot of trouble and time and make you just as happy.
Good luck finding your Soom Tanning Godo! I hope you'll get him in the re-release.

 

I hope I get him too

Anyway, I do doubt there are many worthwhile dolls that are that hard to find, since I do think most companies release more than 20 of them at a time

Back to the topic:

Disclaimer: I am not an expert, this is really just what I think would happen.

Even if you buy a $3000 dollar doll on the market place, and there is a re-release the value won't really decrease all that much just because of the re-release. Because it's still limited. It isn't like it turned into a regular item that could be purchased any time.

If that were the case, then yes, I could definitely see why some would be pissed off with a re-release.

It isn't like everyone can rush and shell out big bucks at the drop of a hat, either. I would think, buying a re-release might put 50 to 100 new dolls on the market if they're not cheaply priced. An example would be: $1000 per doll. From what I've seen you tend to get barely more than half a month to prepare for a re-release.

Lots of us are usually caught off guard by that and don't have time to gather money or at least that much money. So, I doubt the market value probably doesn't drop much overall, since some of those dolls are going to permanent homes at some point. Right?

 

At the end of the day that doll company is a business and a business is out there to make money.
They wouldnt do anything if it didnt make them money.
So I guess thats the reason for re-releasing retired dolls.

 

1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?

They are a business and thus motivated by profit. I WANT my favorite companies to stay in business. To do that they need money, so I think that if they feel they need to re-release a sculpt to, for instance, get out of the red, then I have no issues with it.

But even if they did it because demand dictated it, I also wouldn't have a problem with it. I personally feel that often people buy dolls because they are exclusive rather than because they love them. If a sculpt is re-released this may affect market value of the initial release, but it shouldn't change how much people truly love their dolls.

2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?

I think it is great to re-release dolls with a more modern resin to better preserve the sculpt. People can then have an "original" and a newer, but more resilient resin one as well.

As a newer BJD collector, I want quality dolls made of quality resin. I won't buy an "original" to have an "original". Longevity is important to me, and I think great sculpts should be readily available to those who want to buy them direct from the manufacturer. But I'm not a huge fan of the secondary market. I like to buy my dolls new since I'm very particular about my dolls.

3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?

I don't buy dolls because they are rare. I buy them because I love them. In other words, I only buy dolls I want to keep. Their market value has little relevance to me.

Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?

No and no. I think as a company with integrity they need to have good customer service, create quality products for competitive prices and turn a profit so that they are there in the future if I have any repair concerns. Re-releasing particular headmolds has little relevance to me since I feel it celebrates the beauty of a particular sculpt. I have little use for secondary market values.

If a company released past headmolds in an anniversary celebration or wanted to celebrate a particular headmold in a newer resin I think it would increase my respect for the company. They recognize that they want their dolls to be appreciated by all collectors rather than by a select few. I think that's marvelous.

 

What are your feelings on popular companies re-releasing retired sculpts?

It makes me happy. If I can have a chance to get a doll that I might not have known about before, or had come out before I had gotten into the hobby, I consider it a great opportunity.

I didn't get to get a Breakaway though.

1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?

I don't know how moral it is. It really upsets me to look online and see a doll that was selling at $600-ish dollars be immediately resold for twice that; heads on their own going for $800+. It doesn't seem fair, but that person did buy the sculpt, and if they want to sell it for that much, there unfortunately are people out there desperate enough to pay it.

2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?
Consider the fact that many doll owners (including myself, haha) are secret Breakaway fangirls, and to see one/have the opportunity to purchase one used to be like a thousand Christmases to some people, and if you managed to hunt one down for yourself it was a matter of great pride. Now they'll be all over the market again with shiny new resin. Does this affect how you feel about the previous sculpt?

Not me. I wouldn't really care if they re-released a doll for others, I would be happy that other people would have gotten a chance to also buy one. I know how much it hurts when you think you're goping to be getting one of these dolls, and then it falls through. I don't wish that feeling upon anyone. And velue wise, I would think that the older head would theoretically b more valuable, but I don't really know.

3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?

Again, I don't really care about rarity. I would be happy for everyone to get whatever they wanted. I think that the most important thing is what you personally do with the doll. If you see your character as a certain doll, or just want a certain doll because you love it, you shouldn't have to go through so much in order to get your dream doll. But that's only my opinion. I guess if it didn't matter that much I'd only own Barbies.

And a last, very small question:
Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?

No. If they're selling a doll I want, chances are I'll still buy the doll.

 

This seems to be the unpopular view in this thread, but as this is dolly debate, I'll say it anyway. Forgive any pointedness here. I too prefer not to see my dolls as "investments" as discussed in another thread. However, I still have issue with what this thread is addressing.


The issue to me is not the re-releasing. It's wonderful that so many people who love the mold are able to get the doll again. However, if a doll company says "this is the final release. Get it now, or never." The company is making a printed statement, a promise, and a contract with the general public. "If we sell this to you now, you will have one of 20 worldwide. There will not be another chance." They should own up to their word, and let it be.

To quote sailorlimabean:

And also quoting Kittyaz's very well-worded point:

This is a serious point of contention, as while the contract was not formalized by the company, the printed word is powerful, and that contract was implied. The company, by turning around and breaking this word, is violating the customer's trust, financial investment, and their decision to purchase the product at that particular time. It may have been a serious financial undertaking or bad timing to get that 'last release' - one that perhaps required a loan to be possible. This would not have been necessary if the buyer could have waited another year. That is just one possibility, but quantities of money the size of what we look at for dolls are nothing to spit at. And in a way, the company by turning on their promise seems to be doing just that.


In reply to bunnydots

I don't believe this is the case. The stock market is something that rises and falls regularly, but there are still clear rules in play there. When those are broken, legal repercussions are imminent. This has proven not to be so in the doll market. Re-releases, release dates, customer care, fees, and other issues are not policed. What seems to be a sound investment may not be, and that is directly in the company's hands, rather than in the hands of a competitive market of other doll makers. Dolls have the potential to be seen as investments, but they are not the same level of investment as stocks, thus the legal perception of these different markets are worlds apart.
To continue this, doll "investments" (which is an entirely larger discussion) may be lowered in value by a new doll that poses better or that has a better resin... but that is a factor that involves no deceit. If it done honestly, then the risk too was a fair risk.


I have no problem with dolls that are not labeled as "retired." Things like the Bambicrony colored elves that may be released again at some point (if the resin gets figured out), but are only available in unpredictable batch time-frames... the company is making no promises there. To me, the honesty is what is lacking, and whether or not the community sees a problem with the way people view their doll (investment, art form, cuddle-buddy, or what-not) is beside the point. Buying dolls to save and make money with later may or may not be wise, but it is perfectly reasonable for a person to choose to do that.
Whether or not many new buyers are happy at a chance to get the beautiful doll previously thought unattainable... the broken word is still there. And that can't be fixed.
A lie, especially when used for marketing and financial gain for the company, is still a negative experience for those who believed the lie. That sort of lie should not be within the company's perogative to make.


(again, sorry for the strongly worded post! Hopefully it's not offensive. I in no way meant it to be!)

 

1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?
Typically the profit-motivated would seem a bit more "wrong," but I doubt we'll ever know the companies' true motives. My guess would be that their motives were a mix of both. As long as there was never a specific claim that these were the only dolls available, on a now-or-never basis, then it's fine for a doll to be re-released.

2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?
I think the only reason to feel this way would be if you bought your doll as an investment (even so, I doubt the re-release would affect it too much. Just look at how expensive number one Barbies are now, even with the tons of reproductions out there). If I owned an original that was hard to find but the sculpt was being re-released, I would be thrilled. I would feel bad for all the people who missed the first chance, and delighted that they would all get a second chance. And if I bought a new doll, I would never feel that the original was outdated- I would feel like those who owned the originals were lucky.

3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?
Not really...

Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?
As long as I like their dolls and they are not directly violating the law, I'll buy from them. I might just be more wary of what they call their limiteds, if a limited isn't so limited, I might not feel as pressured to jump on it when they are first released.

 

I beg to differ: on the CP Breakaway re-release, my cat never purchased one.

 

I get what ChiByakko is saying and, honestly, I do agree if the company does say "THIS IS NEVER COMING OUT AGAIN" they should stick to it.

 

1) Do you feel that their motives for re-releasing a sculpt are "moral"? Is there a difference if it is done as a favour to fans, or is it largely motivated by potential profit?
Alternatively, there is Volks Sasha/Masha, who was recast with some small differences due to a petition, and then sold as a Limited. Even now it is hard to get your hands on a Masha, and if you can it is usually at a grossly inflated scalper price.

I think their motives for re-releasing are about as moral as the people who buy to resell their limiteds. I'm all for companies re-releasing dolls as I feel it puts a lot of the people who want to profit from fan's desperation out of business.

2) From the perspective of an owner of the original, should one feel like your doll is "undervalued" by the release of new versions of old classics? Alternatively, as a new doll owner, should one feel that the original is now "outdated"?
Consider the fact that many doll owners (including myself, haha) are secret Breakaway fangirls, and to see one/have the opportunity to purchase one used to be like a thousand Christmases to some people, and if you managed to hunt one down for yourself it was a matter of great pride. Now they'll be all over the market again with shiny new resin. Does this affect how you feel about the previous sculpt?

Don't own one so can't say, but personally I'd tend to feel that the original has become less valuable simply because it's older ie more likely to have yellowed, been scratched or damaged and unless there were significant differences, I would always go for the newer version.

3) From the perspective of someone who has long coveted these "retired" dolls and missed the chance to buy the new ones, should one feel cheated by the doll companies for giving everyone another chance and affecting the rarity?
This coincides with the ever-present debate on the "rarity" of a doll and ties into the previous question. What if you purchased a head with the assumption that it would never go into production again, only to find that another surprise batch was released a year later? Would you feel betrayed by the doll company that sold you the head because you bought it on the assumption that it was rare?

I own a Migidoll Ryu and Miho that when I bought, I didn't realise they were supposedly rare and not to be released again. There's soon to be a new release in May and I'm perfectly happy about it. It's probably devalued the heads that I have, but I'm not worried. They're lovely sculpts and I'm glad other people will have another opportunity to get their own. I love masha and other Volks sculpts, but if I want a rare doll, I'll go FCS and get one of my own, otherwise I'll get a basic and customise it. I won't pay scalper prices on a limited and figure if I can't get one in a lottery etc, it's not meant to be and focus on another doll (one of the joys of being a practical person).

And a last, very small question:
Does this affect how you view the integrity of a doll company? Does it change your opinion in either a positive or negative way, or increase/decrease your chances of buying from the company in the future?

Nope, I see them as being in business. When Tensiya increased the prices of their Bermanns from $1200 to $2000, it was obviously in response to the secondhand prices. Why put all the work into the dolls only to see other people making more money. I'm wondering if Dollshe will offer a Bermann face-sculpt with his new boy. He's supposedly changing the body, size etc, so it won't be a Bermann per se. We could easily see his face being offered on a 65cm doll. Luts don't specify how their dolls are limited ie face-sculpt, face-up etc so obviously they feel free to re-release. If people are selling their dolls for $2-$3000 secondhand, it will obviously provide incentive to re-release them. I love how they've bought out a miniature Woosoo as well, I'm guessing that will be up for re-release in SD size eventually. It may diminish the secondhand sales of these dolls, but nothing is guaranteed to hold it's price. Look at all the other dolls on ebay. No company really cares about the secondhand market for their dolls unless it offers an opportunity for them.

 

Oh, this is an interesting response! Not to put you on the spot, but I find it to be an interesting cross-point to what many others feel about this hobby.

It sounds like you feel that because the company is in business, profitablity for the doll maker is the driving justification for re-releasing.
But in this case you used the example of a company that did not ever claim a doll had been fully retired. (which avoids a tricky point. - and for the sake of debate, I'm bringing it back up.) Do you think an artist/producer's right to profit more than the second-hand market justifies false information when a company does say that the sculpt will be retired?

Why I find this particularly interesting, is that when a person sells dolls for more on the secondhand market, they are a doll-dealer. This service is that of a middleman who can make it possible for others to purchase a doll from someone in-country, or with personal check or any other more convenient way. Why is the doll artist raising prices or making profit in a marginably fair way more acceptable than marginably fair middle-man practice?
I'm personally not fond of either middle-men making dubiously fair profit or companies doing the same, as I have made clear in this and other debate threads. But I find it interesting how people defend certain practices that are unfavorable while denouncing others in the same breath. I'm always curious what foundation values determine which are acceptable to whom.

I hope my business ethics curiosity didn't pull this too off-topic.

 

I dont really understand limited sculpts and retired sculpts. They make me sad. I dont love abjds because I can potentially acquire for a ludicrous sum one of the only two of some random sculpt in the world. I love them because a face or a glance or a hand makes me fall in love with them. It in fact makes me angry that companies retire sculpts at all. For instance, Elfdoll Soah is supposed to be going into returement very soon. This veritably makes me sob, because Soah is literally the only female sculpt I have ever felt that flutter in my chest for, that tug that says 'Make me yours'.....

I know I wont ever have her because I cannot afford to get her now, while she is still around, and noone sells their Soahs unless they modded them in some weird way. It is not a nice feeling to think that just because some company wants to 'bump the collector value' of their work, that I am effectively barred from acquiring a sculpt. This is why I am in a panic to get my Abadon. Who knows when they'll shoot him down too???? And then I would be so heartbroken I dont know if I could take it. =T_T=

Collector value is such crap when any hobby creates such feelings of passion. Isnt the love of the object good enough?

 

I can understand why they do limiteds sometimes. It's like a feeler thread in the Marketplace. "Would anybody want this? We're gonna make a couple. If people love them, then we may make more." That's what "Limited" means to me.

Like right now, I just fell completely in love with Soom's Beryl-Neverending Dream, who has these fantastic succubus legs, horns and wings. She's beautiful, in my opinion, but she's not for everybody. Sadly, I don't have $800 dollars to bring her home.

If they were to release her as a general right off the bat, who's to say that she would make the company money? She may tank. Same with their Vega-Last Song. They made him a limited and he may not be for everybody, with his fins.

They have to think of the business aspect. "What limiteds did well? Well, this one, this one and this one... Let's re-release this one!"

Wheras, personally, if they say "retired", and they re-release it? Then they're just being fickle.

That's this blue one's opinion.

 

I have absolutely no problem with re-releases. As mentioned by another member before, I WANT my favorite doll companies to stay in business. So, if they need to get some cash flow going and re-releasing a doll would help; then by all means.

Since I also got into this hobby fairly recent so I have missed many dolls that I love to own. So I would be very happy if the company decide to re-release I will be dancing with joy.

And no I do not buy my dolls as an investment. It would be nice if I can get some money back if I happened to make a buying mistake and bought something I did not like in person. It saved me from losing a lot of money for a mistake. AND not all LE are guarantee to sell in the second hand market. I have a LE that I need to part with, but no one wants to buy regardless of price. So even in the second hand market the driving force is demand and extra money, not necessary because the doll is a LE or a limited.

Half of my family is LE, but they are valuable to me because I love them. And I was willing to spend the money on buying them and put up with my old old old laptop for another two years.

 

If its a limited and they rerelease it i think it should be different looking in some ways or its not fair to the people who bought the first one.