OT/General Pricing!

I don't think you can compete directly with the Asian markets. As you say, the Asia-based doll companies have the advantage of less expensive labor and materials, plus they are a company (even if a small company), not an individual artist trying to do everything yourself. Then too, they are selling in larger quantities per doll than you probably want to. The Soom monthly dolls, for instance, all have the same bodies, just different heads, feet, horns etc. So they are able to produce the base doll in larger quantities.

What I'm rambling about, I guess, is that you're selling a different kind of product, more toward the art doll end of the spectrum. Personally I don't think you should underprice yourself. At least you need to get your expenses back, including your time.

 

This is a good question.

When I was an Art Student at University (many, many years ago) it was very important for me to be able to sell the artwork that I had created in the classes I took. The reason was that the sales allowed me to purchase more art materials, so I could continue my studies. The guiding factor in pricing the artwork for sale was that I should recoup all of the cost of the materials that I had in the piece, plus a little extra to help pay for associated costs, such as a nice bottle of plonk (cheap red wine), or the electric bill, whatever. As an art student, I never expected to sell my work for the same prices that I saw artwork selling for in the art galleries.

A new doll maker, making a first doll, is very much in the same spot as an art student. They have not established a name for themselves, or their work. And yet, the cost of materials for the doll they make is certainly quite expensive. If they have invested in new studio equipment, such as accurate scales for weighing parts A&B of resin and silicon rubber, an air compressor, a pressure pot, and modeling tools, then that first doll has a very large overhead cost, not even starting to count the time put into it.

The materials used to make the final doll, are, for the most part, not reusable. The studio equipment that was purchased, will have to earn its purchase price by being amortized over making several more dolls.

As far as time goes, a beginner doll maker is certainly going to take much more time to make a first doll, than subsequent dolls. Experienced doll makers do not take nearly as much time to make a doll as a new doll maker does. So a new doll maker cannot expect to ask the same hourly rate as an experienced doll maker.

Often, making a name for yourself requires a tremendous amount of time and energy that is not spent actually making a doll. This is time spent on your computer, promoting yourself and your work at various websites. It is time spent packing up your dolls to take to doll shows. It is time spent sitting in a booth at a show, chatting with customers about your doll. And everyone at such a show is a customer, whether they buy, or not. They will (hopefully) talk to others about your doll, and they will tell others how nice (or not) you were to talk to at that show. Sometimes, these shows are in different cities, and that requires staying at a hotel, and eating out, and traveling to the show, et cetera, ad infinitum. Packing, traveling, unpacking, setting up a booth, staying in the booth and talking to customers, packing up, traveling, unpacking..... all time spent not making dolls.

Local art shows, juried competitions, local doll clubs, and so forth are other ways to get your name known. Start locally, and work towards the rest of the world getting to know you, over time.

So what should the price of your doll be?

Is this doll going to be a Limited Edition, or an Open Edition doll?
A Limited Edition Doll has only a certain number made. That's it.
An Open Edition is not numbered, and you will make one for a customer, anytime.
For the Limited Edition Doll, you be asking a much higher price for it,
because you must make all the money you invested in the doll, from that limited number of dolls.

With the Open Edition Doll, you are not limiting the total number of dolls made,
so the asking price is lower, BUT, you may end up selling many more of these dolls
over a much longer period of time. By having a lower asking price, you will make your
doll available to a much larger audience.

The asking price for an Open Edition first doll is also lower because you do not have a name for yourself, yet. No one knows you as a doll maker. If they know you already, as an illustrator, or some other reason, then you are one up on a doll maker who is completely unknown.

Did you keep any records at all of the time you spent working on your first BJD?
Do you have ANY idea at all how much time you put into this doll?
How much of that time was spent learning how to make it?
How much of that time was spent correcting errors that you made, as a beginner?
Do you feel comfortable charging people for that time?

Do you have receipts for everything you purchased, related to making this doll?
Did you have to travel to purchase supplies?
Did you keep accounts of mileage, and so forth?
In some countries, those things can be deducted from taxes.
All of these things are a part of the cost of the doll.
If you did not keep receipts and accounts, how do you know if you are going to make money?

Basically, you figure the price for your doll the same as any manufacturing business does. If you have not kept track of any receipts, or other business expenses, then you will have a much harder time figuring out if you made any money after you sell your doll. You should recoup the amount of money it cost you to make it, including materials, labor, and other overhead costs, as well as make a reasonable profit. You are in business to make a profit, right?

So, this is what you should do to figure out a basic price:

Total the cost of everything you have purchased for making this doll:
Drawing materials.
Armature wire.
Modeling stand.
Modeling clay.
Waste molds.
Finishing materials.
Final Molds.
PU Resin, Porcelain slip... whatever.
Wigs
Eyes
Face-up and body blushing paints.
Clothing
Shoes
Accessories.......

You will have to divide that total amount up, and make it a part of each doll's price.
The next part of the price should be something for your time and talent.
Since you are brand new to the business, you cannot command the same as someone like Marina Bychkova (for example).
Don't forget to add something for all the time it is going to take you to promote your doll.
If you are going to let an agent or dealer do this, add their commission rate !!!
Remember to add shipping and handling costs !!!
Finally, do you have any notion how much this doll cost to make as far as overhead goes? (Electricity, Heating, Cooling, Water, Gas, Studio Rent, et cetera ....?)

Once you have the above figures, and decide Limited Edition, or Open Edition, then
please share your results with us, so we can discuss everything. This may be an opportunity for all of us to learn how to do this. :confused:

 

You're very welcome.

The things that I mentioned are not unwritten rules !!!
Selling art is called business.
Just go to Google.Com and look for books and information about Making A Living With Art.
Substitute the word Art with Crafts, Pottery, jewelry, Woodworking, whatever....

There are generic books available which tell artists and crafts-people how to do business.
There are specific books available that tell you how to sell your specific craft or art.
Essentially, they will all tell you more or less the same thing....
Business is business.

If you don't keep good records, you will never know how much to charge for your doll.

When you make a doll on your own, that no one has commissioned from you,
then you are making the doll on speculation, the same way that a builder makes
a house on speculation, then puts it on the market. What price should you charge
for your spec doll? How much should the builder charge for the spec house?

As much as you think the market will bear.
That is how much your doll is worth.
That is what you should charge for it.
What people actually pay for the doll is how much it is really worth !!! :p

Since this is your first doll, I think you should charge the time it took you to make it, to education. You learned how to make a doll with this first one. You should pay the cost of the education. Forget 2 years, or 10 months. Was that 10 months of 40 hour weeks? Do you think you have 1600 hours in this first doll? Write that off as education expenses. There.... the headache about talent and time is gone from the equation. That should make it a little easier?

How much cash money is it going to cost you to make one resin copy of the doll?
Keep track of your materials for making this one copy of your finished doll.
How much is it?

One basic crafts formula says to charge 2.5 times the cost of your materials.
If the doll copy costs you $100.00 USD to make, then you should charge $250.00 USD for it.
That is just one formula.

Sometimes, depending on the craft, and the materials, and the difficulty of manufacturing, that formula won't work. Then you need to figure out a formula that does work. It really helps to have receipts for materials. Keep a project job card and clock in and out each time you work on your doll. That will help to know how much time it takes to make one copy of your doll. There are examples in various books of these kinds of job cards, for jewelers, potters, blacksmiths, woodworkers, and so forth. All of these crafts have people in them who make a living making their crafts. You should be able to find an example of one and modify it for your own craft.

But to say that such-and-such a doll from an established doll maker costs so much money on the current market, really has nothing to do with your first doll that you have not even bothered to keep records of your time, or materials on. There is no comparison. Just forget all those numbers. They do not apply to your doll at all.
Not that I can see, anyway.



EDITED TO ADD: As far as I know, twigling recently completed a series of business courses, and she used her doll as a model for a prospective business. In other words, she went to school to learn how to sell her Art (in this case, BJDs). As I mentioned above, business is business, not a set of unwritten rules that are applied arbitrarily to whatever you want to sell.

 

I am going to say $600 to $650 is much too high.

$600 X 20 dolls is $12000.00.
$650 X 20 dolls is $13000.00.

$600 X 30 dolls is $18000.00.
$650 X 30 dolls is $19500.00.

How much does it cost you in materials, to make one copy of your doll?
How much does one resin copy of your doll weigh?
Forget how much time it took you to make it.

 

I live in the UK and completely understand the high tax worries . Having looked at your doll I think he's great, the face is without a doubt beautiful, and I think the body sculpt will add something a bit different to the current male ABJD style market. Hence making your product desirable. Also, because he's in the ABJD style and cast in resin you should be able to showcase him on DOA, getting yourself some interest there. Advertising is a big part of pricing, the more people see your doll, the more they want it, and the more likely it is that someone who can afford a limited art doll will stumble across him and fall in love.

You are getting Ask cast professionally, which should mean that the end product will be quality, and even if you plan on selling Ask blank, you can remove his flash/seam lines etc. before shipping which costs you nothing but time to do and makes the doll a more inviting buy.

Remember that even though your initial investment is around 400 USD, when you divide that by the amount of dolls you intend to cast and sell (10 or 20 or 100) and it becomes rather negligible~ once you've sold 5 or so dolls you could be in clear profit even if you sell them for only 400 USD each. (In fact it would be less than 5 dolls if the cost of casting each doll is 160 USD, but you know what I mean).
You would then add the tax percentage on after settling on a price. Unfortunately in situations like this the amount of time it has taken from start to finish really should be written off as education, like Kwmelvin said. Future projects will be much quicker to complete, so the initial time spent will be absorbed later.

To me, If at completion he'd sculpted to the same level of quality as his head, and he's cast to a high standard in quality resin, including tax and whatnot 600 USD isn't unreasonable at all for a 60cm limited edition doll. I would say he'll be worth it. Especially considering the high taxes you face in Sweden.

Once you have a near complete prototype to showcase you may even be in a position to get pre-orders. Artists like Marina Bychkova ask for a percentage of the full cost before the doll is even cast, and then the rest is paid just before the doll is shipped. You could also offer lay-away/instalment plan options if you're really scared of frightening off customers with a high price tag if you get enough pre-order down payments to make it viable for yourself financially.

Another issue is shipping, if someone looks at a product but can't stomach the high shipping cost they might not buy the product. But if the cost of shipping is absorbed in the overall price and therefore "free" it might not be as scary looking.

I hope this wall of text helped more than confused, good luck with Ask, he's lovely so far, you shouldn't be afraid to price him at what you think he's worth. If nothing else you can always lower the price slightly if it's not working out.

 

It looks like the answer is to move to Canada then :P

 

Some good points are being made. You don't have to make a profit on just one doll because you're going to be making more than one. So when you decide how many you want to make, say 20, you can get a rough quote from your casting company for 20 dolls. Add up casting, materials, shipping, boxes and packing material, and taxes. Divide by 20 and you'll have your expenses per doll (which should be a lot less than $600).

So to use some actual figures, you estimated $420 on materials. Casting-- let's use Dollshe's pricelist for now, $2900 basic charge for 20 dolls. Packing materials, say $10 a doll. Taxes -- I have no idea. So...

Materials: $420 / 20 = $21
Casting: $2900 / 20 = $145
Boxes etc. = $10
Total expenses per doll = $176

(Note that there will be miscellaneous additional expenses, but this will give you the idea. Also, shipping will be additional but you can charge the customer actual cost for that.)

So your total outlay for all 20 dolls will be in the $3500-$4000 range. If you charge $600 per doll, you only have to sell 6-7 dolls to make ALL your expenses back. If you charge $500 per doll, you only have to sell 7-8 dolls.

Sorry this got a little long-winded. But I hope it makes you feel more hopeful-- you don't actually have to sell 20 dolls at $650 apiece to show a profit.

 

business reputation

Doll makers work long and hard to establish their reputations as doll makers.

Who are you?
Outside of this forum, which you joined in February 2009, what is your reputation as a BJD maker?

How many dolls have you made before this one?
Before I order a doll from you, who can I ask about it, other than you?
Has anyone, other than yourself, seen this doll at a show, picked it up, held it, posed it?

Do the joints work at all?
Can the doll stand and pose on its own?
How long did the person have to wait for it to be shipped?
How long did they have to wait between ordering the BJD and receiving it?
How was it packaged?
Any independent box opening videos posted anywhere (YouTube, Vimeo, etc)?
How many other people own copies of this doll, and what are their independent reviews of this doll?

Has this doll been discussed on any other forums, besides this one?
What is the quality of the resin?
What are the experiences of people who have modified this doll?
How do the eyes fit, etc., etc.?

Has anyone at all, anywhere, posted any feedback, on doing any kind of business transaction with you, for anything else, besides this doll?

I have been discussing this thread with my partner, who has a University degree in Business.
From the perspective of a consumer, those were the questions that were asked.
I am passing them on to you.

When I was a student in Art School, we were taught so many things, except one: business.
I had to learn the business lessons on my own, after I graduated from Art School.
So while I do not have a business degree, I do have lessons that were learned the hard way, through experience. Most of the lessons I learned were just the mechanical aspects of doing business, keeping records, etc.

I am very sorry if what I have posted has offended you in any way. I thought you really wanted to know what others thought about how to price a BJD. I had no idea that you already had your mind made up, and were just telling everyone what you are planning on charging for your first doll? I still think it is too high, for a first doll, from a doll maker that is, for the most part (as far as I know) unknown in the Worldwide BJD Marketplace.

If you feel comfortable asking the same price for your first doll, that no one knows anything about, as doll makers who have established reputations, published feedback in Marketplaces, and known dolls, then go for it!

Best Wishes for Success in all of your doll making (and selling) endeavors !!!

 

If you have professional business consultants in Sweden telling you to charge $1000.00, then charge $1000.00 per doll.

They are the business professionals, not me.

$1000.00 X 20 dolls is $20,000.00.
$1000.00 X 30 dolls is $30,000.00

Since your doll is only going to be a Limited Edition, why not ask more for it, like $1100.00 or $1200.00 each? You are not pricing this doll for the average BJD collector, but only to BJD collectors who purchase LE dolls. They expect to pay more for a LE Artist BJD.

 

Double the price, triple the price, quadruple the price..... what does it matter?

The question was: How do you figure out how to price a BJD?
Maybe I misunderstood the question?

 

This is a good example of how keeping records helps with pricing arts and crafts.

Since the casting is being done by a casting service, you do not have to keep track of the time and materials it takes to mold and cast the dolls. You do have to pay them a large chunk of money up front, before you have sold any dolls.

Collectors are a funny group. There will always be collectors who are looking for a new face, and are willing to invest in a collectible made by an unknown artist. Sometimes, the higher the price of the collectible, the more the collector wants it, because it is exclusive. Not everyone will have a chance to own one.

That is one reason why it doesn't matter if you double, triple, or quadruple your asking price, in my opinion. You only need to sell very few dolls to recoup expenses.

Bronze sculptors would make a limited edition of a bronze statue. The first one would start at, say, $3000.00. The next one in the edition would go for $3250.00. The third one in the edition for $3500.00, and so on. Thus, the value of the sculpture would increase, as the edition was sold. Selling an edition allowed the sculptor to start work on another sculpture.

I think that selling an Open Edition of a first doll would be a good idea. The asking price could be lower, because there would never be a limit on the number of dolls made. The lower price would allow more people to buy the doll, and those buyers would contribute to the doll maker's reputation as a doll maker. While the first doll is selling, the second doll could be started, and so forth.

 

Oh, this is what I forgot to say in my previous long-winded post. I wanted to say that you probably can get a higher price for Ask, because he's a type of doll that is very popular right now (the realistic male), also because he's very well done!

I was just hoping that my wall o' math would reassure you that you'll still make a profit either way.

 

Please don't close the thread; it has been a very informative and helpful read for me.

Don't feel discouraged Aminoff! Ultimately you are the one to decide how much to charge, and your reasoning seems fine to me (though I don't know business stuff either). Just focus on finishing your doll first ^_^

 

I have to agree with Aminoff, it's disheartening when new artists are expected to devalue their hard work, even if the quality is just as good as an established company. I truly believe that artists should price their work at what they think it should be worth. The price can be knocked back if needed, and you have to test the water one way or another.
$1000 does seem like a bit much for a resin doll, even of limited run. But $5-600 looks like a fair price to me for a Sweden based 60cm doll, and I really wish you all the best. You have some work to do before you make it to final pricing though so don't let any of this get you down, try and enjoy the process.

 

I enjoyed reading this post. I have been trying to track how much it is costing me to make my own doll, but it is difficult.

 

I would like to chime in with Yukamina and ask you to please not close this thread. The question of pricing has always been a difficult subject for me as well (I know I'm not selling dolls yet, but I get nervous with pricing my art in general). Although the opinions shared differ a little bit it is very helpful to read the disscussions, to read about things I should be thinking about and considering and recording for future reference. Please leave it up.

Aminoff, I'm sorry I can't help with your questions, because I also am learning, but thank you for your bravery in asking them and sharing your situation in particular.

 

I think you should price it where you feel your comfortable.
If you plan to go to eBay or auction style, it will be the buyer/collector that determines the final price anyway....
I think your going to do just great....

 

Most of the pricing discussed in this forum are for resin cast dolls. What about OOAK pieces, does anyone have any information on that?

 

I've been offline for awhile due to my Internet connection being down because of bad weather. Going back to pricing...(whatever I post are my own thoughts, opinions, ideas, rants, et cetera... !!!)

If you do an Open Edition, but (for example) only order a minimum 20 from the casting company for the first order, make sure that you save a certain percentage from each sale in order to save up, for ordering an additional 20 for future sales. Most businesses put about 30% of their profits back into the business?

From what I understand of the casting services' business (what I've read at this forum), they require a minimum order, and cash up-front. So if your Open Edition sells out, and you get more orders, you'll need to fill them, and you won't want to make your (21-40) customers wait too long? It may be that the first 20 customers were totally happy that they didn't have to wait very long for their order to arrive, and they announced to the whole world that their waiting period was relatively short? Just check out the Waiting Rooms on various forums to see what I mean? I think that this is where the business of Ball Jointed Dolls gets crazy?

Also, check out the laws in your country about mail-order sales? I know this is a big deal in the United States. People who order through mail-order, and pay for the order when they order the item, must receive the item within 30 days of ordering it? That is how it was the last time I checked (a while ago !!!). We did catalog sales for crafts for a few years in the United States. There are laws that are very specific about those kinds of sales. Find out what the legal aspects of your sales are?

As a beginning doll maker, you don't want to get a bad business reputation from the beginning?

So, is it possible for those with maths smarts to give an estimate of what percentage of sales from the first 20 dolls order should be saved in order to order the next 20 dolls? Also keep in mind the lead time for ordering the next 20 dolls? How long does it take the casting service to fulfill a minimum order of dolls from the time you order from them, until the order arrives at your door?

From the time the order from the casting service arrives at your door, how long does it take for you to ship the dolls to the customers?

I for one, would be very interested in hearing some feedback about this from doll makers in various parts of the world?

Yeah, business, right?

 

OOAK pricing

Working artists keep job cards on everything they are working on.

I charge materials and hourly rate for every job I do.

My materials charge includes clocking-in, shopping for the materials, cost of the materials, then clocking-out.
Local mileage is included in that charge. Extra-ordinary mileage is extra.
Very rarely are the materials I need for the job, supplied to me before I begin a job.
I charge an hourly rate.
When I start working on the job each day, I clock-in.
When I finish working on the job each day, I clock-out.
The total cost of the job is the total cost of materials plus my total hourly rate.
I am semi-retired now, so my hourly rate is only $20.00 per hour.
I pick and choose which jobs I do.
Are they interesting?
Are the people I'm working for, interesting?
If they aren't, I usually don't do the work.

 

pricing, then marketing

Why does $1000.00 USD per resin BJD seem like a high price for a new BJD?

Look at these bags:
http://www.tods.com/#/us/collections/women/bag

Maybe this is what Aminoff is talking about? A new fashion accessory?
All the new young fashion designers are new faces.
Perhaps it is all about marketing?

Take a look at this web site:
http://www.artdolls.com/

So now the question is, how to market the doll?

 

i know this thread is already a bit old and answers have been given, but i'm sure a lot of ppl still read this, so i would like to add a link, where a doll artist gives an idea and a list how you can price your art. i agree with the lady, because its like a unwritten rule that artists can't make a living from their art at the beginning, because the value of art rises with the popularity of the artist and his/her object.it's just the way the market works. the title says its about polymer dolls but you can adapt it to any other material for dolls.

http://www.dollmakersdream.com/selling-polymer-clay-dolls.html

on the other hand, if your art is totally popular and people search for its theme in general without knowing your name or your art in particular, you can go from minimum wage to the fair price you should really get per hour. another thing i read somewhere (i think its not mentioned in the link) is that you should NEVER go down with your prices as in "special offer,2 dolls for the price of one" thats not how to sell art. i think this refers to people who have a website with certain dolls with few % off, what is really a no-go in my opinion because an artist who does this does not know what his art is worth
(but i'm sure no one in this forum would want to do that anyway, but i just wrote it down)

 

hi everyone, as the topic "pricing" is very important and interesting to many of us, i still want to add another link which is also from the page i mentioned in my earlier post were i referred to www.dollmakersdream.com.
what i posted before was about "selling your clay dolls". i now found another niche on her page were she writes about "starting a home craft business" and she gives some tips on pricing aswell, it can be found here:
http://www.dollmakersdream.com/starting-a-home-craft-business.html

well, some things in her article go without saying, but i really like the way she gives an insight in starting a business, thats why i wanted to share this with you

 

Thanks for the links, Nike! Not sure if I agree with everything she says, but she has some good pointers.

Because you are competing in a marketplace where most resin BJDs cost in the $300-700 range. A few established brands (Volks, Soom, Iplehouse) can get $1000+ for dolls, but those are usually "fullsets", with faceup, costume, wig etc.

The disadvantage of making a resin BJD is that you have a lot of competition for dolly dollars. The advantage is that you have an established and avid fan base!