Payment Paypal Personal Payments

Many people ask their buyers to cover the fees. It's sad, but true. I don't ask people to cover fees unless I am selling a doll, to which I would be subjected to losing about $40 - $50 on average. I can't afford that kind of loss, especially if I am selling my doll to pay a bill.

People will continue doing this until the end. It is the seller's choice to ask for fees, and the buyer's choice to buy somewhere else if they do not wish to pay the fees.

 

Ohhh I see your point.

I never ask people to send payments as a personal payment. I'd rather just cover the fee.

 

I was charged with a small fee anyways to repay money owed on the personal tab

 

I ask people to cover the fees, by working them into the price of whatever I'm selling.

As for the personal thing, I'd never ask to use that. I've relied on Paypals dispute before, and would hate to have that back up.

Paypal is providing a very useful service for next to nothing. If you don't want to deal with the fee's, find some other way to do transactions, without paypal.

 

It can also be a bit of an issue for sellers as well. If you want to refund someone any part of the payment for any reason you can't. You would need to send it as another personal payment.

I'm not sure sellers necessarily realize that asking for payments as Personal offers buyers no protections at all. I think there is still a lot of confusion about the whole situation.

 

What's the difference between personal payment and online payment other than the fees?

 

If you go to your Transaction Detail page on Paypal, it will tell you whether you have protection by Paypal. For making a Personal Payment Paypal stated...

"We're sorry, but this transaction cannot be disputed because it is not a purchase of goods or services. Please contact the recipient directly."

 

This is a very good point. I hadn't thought about it from that persepective and you're absolutely right about buyer protection. Plus paypal will eventually just change their policy and charge fees for everything if they have to. Thanks for bringing it up.

 

Oh, I am curenntly running a Go and I thought that allowing personal payments will be a good idea. Never thought about the buyer protection... perhaps because I don't plan on scamming anyone XD But of course if someone would rather pay the fees and have the protection-- sure, I am not forcing anyone. Personally I've not noticed the trend of sellers asking buyers to send "personal payments"-- most sellers just ask to pay the fees. I don't allow "personal payments" when I sell because I am afraid it would end up bad for me-- I was allowing "personal payments" at first, just after the change, and one buyer wrote "payment for pants" in paypal notes... just wow... would rather not take the risk here.

 

Well, wouldn't it be a good idea for a GO? Then you wouldn't have to add the fees. But I can see why it wouldn't too...personally, I would not want personal, I rather add the fees.

 

I only ask for PP fees (or Personal Payments) when I run GOs or am sending the money to a company right away (i.e. splits), never for personal transactions. If a buyer chooses to send it that way, that's up to them and I take no responsibility - I'm happy to eat the charges. Heck, I pay PP fees for sellers as a buyer whenever I can afford to and occasionally buyers return the favour.

 

I use the PayPal shipping labels, but I know with the Personal Payments, you can't create a shipping label this way (which isn't a big deal to me if it was being mailed international).

I had to cancel the payment and ask the buyer to please send payment as "Goods" instead ;_;

 

I recently tried to use a Personal Payment option when a friend sent me money... but she said that instead of "not charging fees", she (the sender) ended up paying the fees instead of me (the recipient). Has anyone else had any experience with this?

Personally, I keep a pretty close eye on the Problem Transactions forum to keep educated on what's going on in the Marketplace. Like the OP, I've noticed an alarming trend of buyers who were asked to use "Personal Payment" and now have no way of filing a claim after being scammed.

For me, a seller asking for Personal Payment only would be a red flag that something fishy might be going on. I'm not saying that it definitely means the seller is a scammer, but I'll choose to err on the side of caution. The ability to file a claim is a huge reassurance for me on big-ticket items like dolls. The intent of the "Personal Payment" option was for friends and relatives to be able to send money quickly and safely, not for purchases.

 

TheFontBandit, is your friend from a different country? I think that in this case the sender is charged fees but it's very little-- not the regular fees.

 

Nope, she's actually in the same state, just on the other end of it. It just came up a couple of days ago, so I haven't had much opportunity to look into it yet... but I thought I'd ask in this thread. I'll post here if I find out exactly what the fees were. It may have been because she was using a credit card or something, or maybe even the type of accounts we have.

 

Which Personal Payment option did she use? If she didn't use "payment owed" that could be why?

 

I got charged $.01 when I sent $2.50 as a personal payment to someone in the UK, but I chalked it up to the transaction being international.

Did your friend have funds in her PP account?

 

Just yesterday I took a good hard look at the fees section on PayPal's User Agreement (link here) and domestic personal transactions are charged if you fund it with debit or credit, and the sender chooses who pays the fee. No charge if it's funded by a bank transfer (eCheck) or PayPal balance. So your friend was probably paying with a credit card, and didn't realize that there was a fee involved, so she got charged.

The ONLY time when sending/receiving money is free is a (a) domestic (b) personal transaction (c) funded by bank or PayPal balance. Everything else gets a fee.


On another note, the Fees User Agreement is really not that hard to read -- and this is coming from someone who gets confused when splitting the bill at a group dinner. It's a good idea for both buyers and sellers to just take the time and read it through carefully, so no one's paying more than necessary.

 

You are right I will have to take a better look also. I thought I understand everything but I didn't read carefully enough.

 

Yep, I finally got a chance to read the fees section, and I checked with my friend. She was paying using a credit card... so mystery solved!

 

So I feel like a fool because a day before this thread was made, I sent a payment just like this and my seller just disappeared. I'm potentially losing $700 CAD in this transaction and I'm at a complete loss of what to do.

If I say anything though, Paypal would definitely freeze me, wouldn't they?

 

People are not aware of this, which is listed in the User Agreement:

4. Receiving Money.

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments.

If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.


--

There is a monitoring team that watches accounts for this type of activity, and clear repeated use of the personal payments option for payment of goods can get you suspended.

 

I just had to look this up because I purchased a few items this week where sellers requested "personal payment" option. I actually didn't think anything about it (only ever used Paypal for eBay before.) After a fourth time asking to use personal payment I decided I better find out what it was all about and read what eveshka posted above.

Now that I've found that it's actually against the User Agreement with Paypal I find it frustrating that I was asked to do this like it was standard behavior. Does DoA have any policy for Marketplace sellers requesting people to do this? I would have been fine paying Paypal fees knowing this... Just part of what you pay for the convenience of the DoA Marketplace and Paypal. In this instance, it doesn't make sense to write it off as personal choice since it is so clearly against Paypal rules.

 

semirans; I have been looking thru the transactions and am noticing a disturbing trend. Sellers are asking for buyers to use "personal payment" instead of the standard paypal payment. This is done to reduce the fees that paypal takes from the transaction.

What it actually does is screw over the buyer. The buyer can no longer dispute the payment if the goods are never sent, because in paypal's eyes no good were part of the transaction.

I won't do a transaction where the seller asks for a personal payment, I might as well send them the cash in an envelope and hope.

On a side note:

I realize many of us try to circumvent fees for these services, but really, it doesn't pay in the end. It isn't like payapl is hiding the costs of its service. they are upfront about whow much they will chage you. I use paypal because of the protections and convienance it provides, paying the fees is part of the deal. If you don't like the fees, don't use the service.

semirans


I agree that insurance and piece of mind are important, but many times in the MP people that sell a doll get RAKED over the coals (many buyers want a seller to subsume all the costs of the transaction, without any change in the price of the doll

example (shipping included to a foreign country) when a person ships something from the post office, this is not money they "MADE" it is the money SPENT, and a real not imaginary cost, paypal fees are the same, I guess this is true Either pay the fees or don't but the doll. But don't complain about practise if as a buyer you won't pay actual costs related to buying a doll. BTW(most people do not charge at all for driving to the post office or the sometimes 40min spent on an overseas sale) so I think, by and large people don't charge for their time, but they do charge for out of pocket expenses

The MP is convienient; with a doll in hand, no waiting for months, also an opportunity to buy a doll you missed out on and for that convienvce the buyer also wants a SALE. This is just cheesy. Sorry for the rant, but these dolls cost MONEY

 

I just got the email from paypal

"We recently changed our pricing so that all PayPal customers can receive
money from friends and family within the US for free. PayPal merchants
receiving money as payment for a purchase, continue to incur fees.

We’re not sure if you are aware of this, but we noticed that some of
your customers are sending you personal payments for purchases.
Unfortunately, this violates our rules, and we need your help correcting
this. Please don’t ask or allow your customers to use personal payments
to pay for their purchases.

If we continue to see such activity after May.25,2010, we may have to
disable your ability to receive personal payments, and then you will pay
fees for all money received through PayPal.

You can find more information about payment types and fees in sections
4.2 and 8 of our User Agreement – just click “Legal Agreements” at the
bottom of any PayPal page. "


What should I do ?

 

I never realized that someone putting Personal Payment instead of goods to avoid fees could screw over the buyer in the end. I'd rather pay fees then have something happen and not be able to do anything about it ^.^' Thanks for mentioning it or I would never have known.

I do agree though a buyer should not be expected to pay the fee on big cost items such as dolls. Perhaps as a buyer one doesn't think of the other party so much as just the goods involved and the prices they are. Such as shipping I've never thought to charge a person for the gas and time it takes to send them their parcel only the shipping costs from the post...but I've known some to charge $5 for shipping when the parcel only cost $1.50 to ship...I guess it's all business.

I wouldn't call someone shady for asking me to pay in personal payment. But as a buyer I'd like to be protected as well. I'm more then certain most of us on the MP wouldn't take someone's money and keep the doll as well but there is always that chance, no? And what about things being lost in the post...I guess it all comes down to money and preference in the end.

 

That's the thing, it screws over the buyer and the seller. I don't feel that Paypal makes this clear however when you are sending payment. I've sent three "personal payments" this month for items purchased off the marketplace. I feel that when you select "personal payment" in the window there should be information off to the side explaining that there is no buyer protection and using personal payments for purchasing items could lead to both the buyer's and seller's Paypal accounts being suspended. As I was getting ready to purchase a fullset doll, I had quite a lot of funds in my Paypal account which would be confiscated in the event of Paypal closing it for violating terms of service.

I agree...I would gladly pay Paypal fees to make sure the high cost of BJD dolls and accessories are protected, or at least work out something with a seller to cover fees in whatever deal might be made...

 

They can suspend both parties?

I've only been using the MP for a little bit and I've bought/sold smaller items. I was never asked to pay fees nor did I ask any one who bought from me to pay fees. In fact I hadn't used Paypal in so long that when I got charged fees for a transaction I was like WTF but then read up on it and was like okay...well that's fair.

I never even thought twice when I put a doll on Layaway and the person asked for Personal Payment...now I'm two payments in and sending the last tomorrow. I'm just hoping everything goes well. (which I'm sure it will...)

But, I may just be a worrier... >.< Perhaps when a buyer wants to receive a personal payment they should ask the buyer what their preference is as well? If they'd rather pay fees or not? So it can be mutual...that way if anything happens both parties went in full aware.

I mean is it a hard thing to go in to Paypal and put 'buyer pays fees'? I'm thinking it can't be all that hard, no?

 

That's the part people are obviously missing. It's a PERSONAL payment and not intended for purchases. If the money you (generic) are sending is meant as a gift, you're obiously not going to want it refunded. Of course Paypal is not going to offer protection for a gift.

I agree wholeheartedly that buyers on the Marketplace shouldn't use them to pay sellers. When I sell, I refuse to accept them for large purchases just in case something does go wrong. But it is also the sender's responsibility to educate himself or herself about the potential consequences of trying to avoid the fee system...which is what anyone who's sending personal payments is trying to do.

Yes, some purchases can be quite a lot of $$$. No, no seller wants to lose money to fees. But those fees are part of doing business on Paypal. Shouldn't we all have gotten used to them by now?

 

I definitely agree with the above statement. However, when I sent personal payment there is a selection for "money owed." I thought "Oh this is what I use to pay personal people for things rather than pay companies or eBay sellers..." After all, I do owe money to someone for the items they are sending me... It wouldn't be money owed if you weren't getting something in return.

I just feel that if it's a big deal, and it seems that it is, with the risk of both parties having their accounts suspended or closed, Paypal could be a little more clear on it up front.

For the previous purchases I made, I definitely accept that it was my responsibility to educate myself on this process and if something (god forbid) does happen to the dolls I purchase it will be my own fault for not figuring this out prior. Aside from eBay, which of course has its own specific checkout system, I was using Paypal so long ago that the Personal Payment options didn't exist. I didn't think a "wrong" way existed to send money to people.

 

Money owed should be for small monies owed. Portions of a phone bill charge to cover that long distance call made, or a repayment for lunch when you didn't have enough to cover it. For Moms and Dads sending college incidentals money and siblings sending birthday funds. (The latter two are perfect examples of money sent without something in return.)

Purchases are just that; an exchange of money for a good or a service... which is what needs to be protected. In many cases, a fee is part of doing business, and booked against the convenience (and hopefully security) of using Paypal to get your money.

Too many people start skipping out on the fees, and Paypal will have to either raise fees to those who ARE paying them quietly, or go out of business. And then we will be back to Money Orders and Checks, and hoping we don't get hit with the $30+ bank fee when it bounces.

Thanks, but I'll add a dollar or two to my transaction asking cost and happily pay Paypal my 3% + 35 cents for the convenience of not having to risk other people bouncing checks on me.

 

Listen to Paypal and either eat the ppfees or start factoring them into your prices?


What I don't understand is how people can be so blasé about this. Yes, it screws over the buyer (as can be seen numerous times in the Problem Transaction subforum) and it can screw over the seller by Paypal shutting the account down.
Acenit's right, why can't people get used to the fact that it's a privilege to use Paypal as a method of paying for transactions, and such it's not going to be free.

Anneke, I see 'money owed' more as a refund thing, but I can see where you're coming from

 

topueng7:
I definitely recommend always participating in market place buying/selling using the purchase option and not personal payment. It seems Paypal just sent you a warning advising you to do this from now on, so you don't have to worry too much.

I find it's actually most practical to talk to buyers/sellers about Paypal fees before "shaking on it" so to speak. For my own doll I have listed in the marketplace right now I am offering to split Paypal fees because I feel it's the cost of having this wonderful forum as well as the convenience of Paypal. If DoA didn't exist, I guess I'd be trying to sell my doll on eBay, which charges fees for sellers anyway, and you have no idea whose actually buying your doll. It's great to keep them in the community as well as communicate on a one-on-one basis before all is said and done.

 

Does DoA have an official stance on this kind of payment request?

I honestly hadn't ever thought about it before I recently paid for something as a personal payment and had it subsequently go missing in the post, meaning that now, because I have no way of claiming back the payment, I'm out over $100 and stuck attempting to get the seller to force through an insurance claim with the postal service that I may or may NOT get my money back through.

I'd always trusted the sellers here with a certain level of gentlemen's agreement, if you will, but this has really forced me to rethink the way I deal with people here and I can't be alone in this.

 

I have noticed this trend also, but i find that when trying to sell something if you work the fees and shipping it raises the dollar amount you are asking for over the dollar amount seller y is asking for, so its harder to have a sale at all.like if you say im selling this for 100 +sh+pp versus, 150 total. i refuse to send personal payments for large things but I do use them for things I know I couldnt dispute anyways. for example if im in a soom split that I know is going to last 4 months on layaway, whats the point of paying fees for the first 2-3 payments when you wouldnt be able to dispute them if something went wrong anyways?
I do ask for pp fees in large sales also, but I would expect that of others in return. however, if they are doing a business type of thing, selling lots of clothes/jewelry, etc versus one doll or one wig, then I expect pp fees to be included in price. Overall I agree with the general statement "if you have a problem, buy from somewhere else"

 

I think Paypal actually says something in their terms about "partial payments" so yeah, splits and stuff wouldn't be covered in their buyer protection anyways.

It would be nice if DoA had a "Dont ask for personal payment" policy, but I think it would ultimately be too difficult to enforce, especially when it comes to things like splits and group orders.

 

I don't have a problem sending Personal payments as long as I know/trust the person or if it's a small amount. If it's a large payment, I pay non-Personal AND with a credit card - double safety for my payments. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with sending Personal payments as long as you know and accept the risk. As for asking for them, I don't see a whole lot wrong with it as long as you're an honest person...but of course, you never know if they're honest. As a buyer, you ALWAYS have the right to REFUSE sending it Personal.

 

Yeah, with the help of feedback threads and just being a part of this community, I personally don't feel that the purchases I made with personal payment are at any sort of risk. The sellers were all very friendly and I don't take their suggestion to send a personal payment personally or anything. I was just disappointed that I didn't realize the risks involved until after the fact. I just am glad that now I know the risks, and I personally will always make real purchase payments from now on Paying the fees and all.

 

To those wondering if there is an official DoA stance on personal payments, is it really up to the mods to tell us how to practice safe buying and selling? I don't think it should be DoA's place to police payment methods, whether it be personal/regular Paypal or pertaining to who pays fees for purchases.

If we are adult enough to have Paypal accounts and send money over the internet, we should be adult enough to make our own choices on how that payment is sent (personal or not) and to handle the consequences of our own actions if we make an unwise decision. If a seller insists on personal payment to save a few bucks in fees and a buyer doesn't wish to do this, the buyer has the option to say "no thanks" and seek their item elsewhere. Same thing if a buyer doesn't want to pay extra to cover the seller's PP fees. There's no need for mods to get involved, IMO.

 

Ideally yes, everyone should be mature and responsible enough to not need to be governed by rules. Unfortunately, the long list of rules in the DoA rules section says this is not actually the case. The rules are there to help enforce the integrity and safety of being a community member here, I can't help think DoA is going to run into some kind of problem sooner or later with this particular issue.

But speaking just for myself, I put it entirely on my shoulders that I didn't know of it, and will from now on be much more careful with Paypal payments/fees/etc so that I know exactly how well my transactions are protected

 

Hang about...

Why does Den of Angels have to have a rule for this?

It's already a PayPal rule!!!

 

Stepping in as a moderator here, Den of Angels does NOT have a stance on any of Paypal's policies. We cannot police their rules and will not do so; we will not make rules to enforce the rules of third parties. Thanks.

 

I personally wouldn't send through money via Personal Payment because I prefer to follow the rules where money is concerned - I'm not too keen on the idea of Paypal shutting down my account!

I suspect more people are asking for it though because it's the only way, in reality, of enforcing a 'if it's lost in the post, I won't give a refund' policy - because even if the seller says that, the buyer can still make a Paypal claim and will probably get their money back, even if they didn't ask for any tracking/insurance...

 

Now this whole thing kind of freaks me out, because I've never seen any kind of obvious notice or anything about this really. I actually bought something major in part via Personal gift and had no idea! I seriously think this info needs to be posted, I know the mods can't enforce it, but there's nothing to stop them/anyone from posting a warning somewhere within the Marketplace.

I found this link too which helps explain it clearly (read under "The Scam" section): http://www.auctioncope.com/guide/beware-of-paypal-personal-account-gift-payment-scam/

I think this should be specifically placed right here: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...-and-Selling&p=2746035&viewfull=1#post2746035

 

I don't ask buyers to use the personal payment option, I do however tell them they can choose that method if they wish to so they can save on fees. I also give the option of using money orders. When selling dolls I make the buyer pay the fees, I give the option of using either personal or payment tabs.

When selling clothes, I take on the fees and use the payment tab, as they are normally a lot less on clothes than on dolls. When selling dolls I give users the option of choosing shipping services, under-declaring items or not, less than the true value on insurance or not and the option paypal fees or not.

I've been rather shocked that for my last two doll sales both buyers chose to do personal payment, I know I never would. It has never occurred to me until now that some people might not know how both tabs work, it frightens me a bit to know people would begin using paypal without reading all of it's rules. :/

 

I would rather pay a bit extra to cover the fees than cut corners and not have any buyer protection. I believe that people have good intentions when taking personal payments, but there are always those few people who can screw you over at any time.

 

I won't even accept personal payments for transactions when I'M being paid unless it's for a group order (in which case it really is more of a "payment owed" situation than a buying-something situation) because it's against Paypal's terms of service. I had so many people send me personal payments when I hadn't asked them to that I've stopped letting people just send me the payment and started invoicing them via Paypal instead.

 

I agree with aceinit.

Personally, I think paypal itself can be a sham if you haven't read stories of how many people were being ripped off or such. However, many people use it because it's the fastest way to send money and it might be preferable to postal money orders or to other payment methods.

There always has to be trust or faith that the seller will send or the buyer won't do a charge back on a transaction in addition to protecting oneself from the worst-case scenario.

 

I have lost 2 sales this month because the buyers paid me as a personal payment on paypal after I specifically asked to be paid as "goods". I immediately refunded the money. Both situations were very inexpensive clothing items, and neither person went back and repaid as "goods".
The only way I can ship small clothing items first class, with tracking, is via paypal, or by driving to the post office.
Via paypal, paid as goods, I simply weigh the package, print the label from my computer and send it out, with tracking, for around $2.
If I have to drive to the post office, it takes almost an hour out of my day, so that I can save myself 30 cents in paypal fees.
Definitely not worth it on the "money clock"!
In the meantime, the buyer leaves themselves with absolutely no recourse if I never send the item.
By insisting on being paid under the "goods" tab, I am protecting my buyer, saving myself a whole lot of time, and shipping in about 5 minutes from the time the buyer pays. I am also able to provide a trackable package, a benefit for my buyer and myself, which will arrive in about the same amount of time as a priority mail package (in the US), for less than half the price.

Now, in the case of a layaway, I think it is fair if the buyer asks for a non-refundable down payment, and asks that the payment be paid as a "service". Fees are still paid, but the buyer can not get the down payment refunded. As long as the terms are clear, if the buyer agrees to the non-refundable down payment, they should agree to pay as a service. Just the downpayment, not the rest of the payments, the remaining payments should be paid as goods.

Don't pay under the personal tab. You lose all of the buyer protections Paypal offers.
If you sell under the personal tab, you are not able to put a tracking number into the paypal system, and although your buyer may not be able to get the money back from you, they can leave you negative feedback here on doa, and you have no trackable system to prove that you actually sent the item, even if you did.

 

I have been searching up information on personal p[ayments on Google and this thread came up. I was trying to look for info on seller protection when using personal payment option on paypal but i couldn't find anything through their site.

Anyway, i am a seller and a buyer. As a seller, i do not charge fees. I do however appreciate it if the buyer can use personal option. But i do not force this on the buyer and do not care if they choose not to. I have had buyers do it and buyers who didn't.

And as a buyer myself, i have been asked to send personal payments. This i make my own choice. I usually look at the seller's feedbacks to make that choice. If i see that they have great FB then i take my chance and trust them. If i see that they have little or no FB then i rather pay them the extra fees and not use the personal payment option. I will also use the personal option if i'm buying from someone i have brought from before and fully trust.

So is it true that there is absolutely no protection from using personal option?

 

There is absolutely no protection from using the personal PayPal option (check section 13.3).
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/m...ntent_ID=ua/UserAgreement_full&locale.x=en_US

For my own part, I just don't like to pay personal. If I'm spending that much money anyway, the extra couple of percent, if it's breaking me, I shouldn't be buying the item in the first place. I've needed PayPal protection exactly once, but boy, it was so worth it, and all the information hoops I had to jump through. If the seller isn't going to be out any money, and I don't mind paying it, then it should always be a regular payment that includes the fees, or the seller should list a price that takes the fees into account, and say as much in the listing. That prevents any awkwardness in my insisting on it, or their insisting on it to me. At least that's how I feel about it. ^ ^

.hlp

 

Thanks for that link. I couldn't find it myself. It's very helpful.

 

The entire PayPal agreement is here.

The two paragraphs having the greatest bearing on this discussion are:

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

In other words, you may not ask for personal payments when selling goods or services and you may not charge PayPal fees unless you apply an equal or greater fee for non-PayPal sales (group orders are an exceptional situation). If you have a PayPal account, you have agreed to these terms. It isn't very encouraging to enter into a transaction with someone who has already demonstrated their readiness to dishonor an agreement, to say the least.