Sewing -Noble Threads- Patterns and Progress with Medieval clothes circa50-1650 AD

This sounds like fun, and if I can find my 'History of Costume' book, I'll post again. What I remember about this period, though, is that clothing was constructed mostly from rectangles, with gussets at the armholes, and that the common width for cloth was 30" wide or less.

They also tended to cut things in such a way that the whole length of cloth was used, with nothing left over.

Hope others will post to this thread -

 

I don't know if this is what you are looking for but its worth a look http://marquise.de/en/1500/index.shtml and http://eqos.deviantart.com/ has some really good patterns in her gallery too

 

You. You have made my day. Both references are great (I am going to check out that first one--I haven't seen it before), but I know the Eqos deviant personally! I even roomed with her back in college! We shared this interest and had lots of fun making costumes (well, she did, I gave commentary--I'm terrible at sewing, working on it)! Oh wow, I am so stunningly happy about that!

*cough* Back to being on topic! Gores and gussets are some of my favorite things in the medieval style of clothing. They were very clever with what they had. Also, I particularly enjoy the styles of their headdresses and hats. Given this liking, I intend to do some research and see if I can recreate some of them to go with any outfits I can create.

 

The first link i found a long time ago when i was looking for corset patterns for myself and i've found it one of the most useful sites i've used for my sewing stuff

 

Actually I seem to remember reading that fabric in the Elizabethan age (pre 1600) was actually alot wider then is generally thought. I think I may have gotten that from the instructions for the Margo Anderson pattern I bought. (I kept the instructions but I no longer have the pattern)

The Dollzone Lola I plan on buying is telling me she is from 16th century Ireland, so I will probably post further in this thread.

 

I've been a big fan of the Poulaine toe so when I finally decided to make a pair of boots for both of my boys this is what I found...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/crimsongriffin/sets/72157617159096450/

For my version I used fake leather, a tighter fit pattern because I wanted the results to look more like the paintings, and a center seem along the back. All sewn by hand. I did add a little detail along the edge of the cuff to match the seem in the back.



I'll add better shots of my boots later.

 

I don't know when wider looms became common, much less standard, but I think that before the 15th century - which is the period I thought we were looking at; the Dark and Middle Ages - the standard was between 20" and 30" wide.

I would imagine that as wider looms came into use they would have been used for fabrics for the better off; standard clothing would have been made from narrower stock for quite a long time before wider fabric became readily available to the masses.

We are looking, I thought, at the period before 1500.

Fat fingers there - sorry.

In any case, I only mentioned that in passing; since we are sewing for dolls, any fabric we use will be much wider than was standard for the period.

 

I have 5 mm (momme) silk...its super super thin...it might work well for anything made out of silk. (I've only started working with it....its really thin so some sewing machines may eat it...machine sew at your own risk)

For reference of thickness...it is thinner then average printer paper

 

Yes. Less waste is great! And you can get a surprisingly good fit too, once you understand the principles.

Floursack towels are probably a great resource for this, and I have some cotton lawn, which will also be suitable for some things I think. If budget isn't a consideration for you, handkerchief linen is probably good. You can buy that here: http://www.wmboothdraper.com/Linen/linens_index.htm. I expect there are other sources, but my old source no longer carries it. At 60" wide, though, it's not really quite so spendy as it first appears.

I'll try to keep an eye out; I'm doing other things at the moment, but this is actually what I acquired the lawn for, so it's been there on the back burner for me for a while now!

 

I do a lot of this style of Gothic Fitted Gown full size in our medieval group, and I htink it will be easier on dolls because they aren't squishy - with real people it has to be fitted so that the cloth pushes the flesh into the right shape/silhouette, with resin that isn't an option so all that is needed is to fit the cloth to the shape the doll already is.

Of ourse, that means that getting the correct silhouette isn't possible unless the doll body already happens to be the right shape, with her breasts pushed up and together (the newer style Elfdoll bodies perhaps).

I have plans for my crew but so far I've only made braes, shirt and houpellande or my Luts Chiwoo (none of them more fitted layers in between), and no smocks kirtles or gowns for the girls at all as yet.

Teddy

 

For higher class garments, I have a couple of crates of suitable-scale and pattern silk brocades, and damasks and some fine thin cotton velveteen that works as doll-scale velvet. Heavier cotton velvet would work as doll-scale "plush" type fabrics too.

Some silk damasks and brocades with small patterns work in doll scale as the large patterns seen in paintings and illuminations of the 15th century, and the thinner drapier modern "dress-weight" silks are good for doll scale heavier medieval fabrics in terms of sclaing down the drape and fall of the fabric.. if they're too thin they can always be flatlined with something more substantial.

For smaller dolls-size patterns the silks (and synthetics) woven for making neckties work. Occasionally I find them on the roll in fabric outlets but more often I buy up a bunh of ties in the same colour and weave pattern when they go on sale at outlets like Tie-rack.

Teddy

 

For tiny dolls vintage silk and linen handkerchiefs are perfect, and they are CHEAP! Usually a dollar or so each. Printed ones can always be redyed a dark color.

Vintage linen pillowcases can be found for as little as a dollar, though usually they are around five to ten.

 

Good point!

I mostly collect embroidered, lace edged and/or whiteworked handkerchiefs for Victorian styles (perfect for ready made intricate collars) so didn't think of them in this context.

Teddy

 

Does anyone else find porcelain dolls at thrift shops close to the size of their BJD's and steal thier clothes or take them apart to make a pattern because alot of porcelain dolls are dressed in older style stuff.

 

Actually, Rosslyn and I have both done that. In some antique stores she's found a couple dresses that after some effort could be removed from the porcelain or plastic doll and then had to be fitted to our dolls and adjusted to make room for their pose-ability. I'd post pics or links but both dresses (I have one and she has the other) are off topic for this thread.

Because most outfits found in this manner are sewn or glued on, extra care is required in removing the outfit from the original non-BJD doll. Each doll had a hat, but we either went without or made our own hat for the outfit, as getting something off that had been glued onto that other doll's hair wasn't really worth the effort.

But yes, it can and has been done and the results are usually very nice. But most of these outfits are old, so you need to be gentle.

 

Most impressive - have you tried turning over the top point of the hose and sewing it down to form a shortcasing for the braes/britches drawstring to go through (it means putting them both on the doll as one garment if you don't want to re-thread the drawstring each time, but it's easy enough to don them that way when they're both joined together).

Teddy

 

May I participate?
My project "Lady Uta" 13c
Hose based on this artifact is dated 1247 and this pictures from 13c.
fabrics - natural wool, tablet weaving garter.




shoes based on this sculpture of the end of 12c. Technology of sewing is used from book "Medieval finds from excavations in London 2: Shoes and pattens"
Natural leather, edge stitching, tunnel-stitching.



Cote based on The Gown of St. Clare of Assisi 1253, pattern on Marc Carson's site. Authentical scene from Maciejowski Bible 13c/
fabric - natural flax, tablet weaving belt

 

Very, very nice thread. I found that i can get free leather scraps from a vendor the sells leather goods and crafts. They have a leather making class for people who want to learn how to work with all weights of skins. It sounds interesting. Might try to attend.

 

Just a quick post to show a dress made for SD10 girls by a friend of mine just getting into sewing for dolls:

It's based (although obviously not slavishly) on the Mary of Hapsburg gown datign from the early 16th Century that is in the Hungarian National Museum collection, and is modelled by my Kaye Wigs Nettle/SD10(Swarrico) hybrid.




Teddy

 

I will do, thanks, This one's just made form whatever she had among her offcuts from full size costume making, but I think she could sell stuff like this.

Same here! I haven't even gotten around to starting doll-size turn shoes yet. Thinking about it, the last ones I made for me were about 15 years ago....

Teddy

 

Darina: I love your dress! I love it that I finally see a medieval dress that is not fitted. Some people tend to think that all medieval dresses are fitted and princess-like The tablet woven belt is great, I also ha've plans to tablet weave for BJD's one day.

Teddy: beautiful gown! Your friend did a good job. When I saw it I instantly recognised the dress you were referring to Where did your friend get the fabric, if I may ask? I have been looking for fabric like this, to use on a renaissance gown. However I have difficulty finding small enough scale fabrics of this kind.

 

Have you looked at damask napkins? They are often small-scale jacquard.

 

The simple answer is from her vast collection of offcuts (she's a professional costume maker) and it's probably been there for years waiting for her to find a use for it.

I'll ask her, however, just in case it's a more recent purchase and she can remember where it came from.

I find that the silk brocades (and synthtic brocades) for making ties from often have useable sized/scale patterns, other than that it's just worth keeping an eye open for fabrics that are suitable and stockpiling when you do see them - I've bought handfulls of silk ties all in the same design when they've been on sale at "Tie Rack" and similar outlets, so that I can get hold of enough of the brocade or damask they're made form to make a doll outfit.

Unpicked and opened out, the pieces are bigger/wider than you'd expect (and if they're not quite big enough, piecing is period).

Teddy

 

Adarhysenthe
Teddy
Thank you

Rosslyn

Shoes makes my husband, makes much well, but it is difficult to persuade him.
If he will show interest, I shall report

Yes, I did

seneris
Thank you
I love 13th centuries for simplicity and terseness

Teddy
I know this gown, its easy hear

 

Yay! I'm so glad I found this thread!

This weekend I tried to make hose for my boy to double as leg protectors from his dark jeans and period undergarments and I epic failed! It was terrible, but in my defense I was working from memory from a pattern I hadn't studied that well...

Rosslyn, what cloth did you use for your hose and does yours have a seam in the foot as well?

When I get a female doll I really want to make her a cotehardie, but I'm not sure how to clear that hurdle w/o hidden fasteners. I recently put the cotehardie made for myself onto a dress form and it nearly didn't go on! We had to push the sholders into the body to get the dress on and then it didn't lace up right over her chest. But I'll cross that hurdle when I acctually have a doll to try it out on.

 

There should be no trouble at all if the gothic gown is fitted on the doll itself. It's not something than should be made from a pattern, even on people, if you want it to fit correctly. In a way, it should be easier to fit on a doll as :

a) They don't walk off to catch their favourite TV show in the middle of a fitting

b) They don't squish, so you're fitting the gown to their shape rather than using the fit of the gown to squish the human body to the correct silhouette (bust raised and pushed into the "monobosom" shape etc).

The downside is that, because they don't squish, you can't really get the correct silhouette on a doll unless their bust is the right shape to begin with (the newer style Elfdoll body witht he "wonderbra" bustline, perhaps.... I didn't keep mine for long enough to try it)

Good luck with it.

Teddy

 

hahaha...so, talked to a friend yesterday about how to make hose and my first big glaring mistake is a stupid one! I cut on the grain instead of the bais when using a woven fabric! I feel soooo special. Now what I'm going to do is aquire some jersy fabric and try again. This should stretch more to begin with and should come off once fitted to his leg.

 

I will be making a "kirtle" and a surcote for my incoming SD girl. I'm just waiting on the body. I say "kirtle" as the pattern for it is a modern pattern.

I will also be making a accurate moy gown for her as well as soon as I find the right fabric, draft the pattern, and make all those tiiiiny little buttons. It'll be a labor of love.

 

I would love to see that when it's done - I haven't even tried a full size Moy gown yet. Will you be taking work-in-progress pictures as you make it?

Teddy

 

I'm making an Italian renaissance gown for my MSD (pale blue gamurra, white chemise, light gray giornea).
Well, the gown, chemise and the cap from a gold net, trims and pearls are finished, but I somewhere lost the pattern for giornea (overgown).The giornea's right side, from a velvet, is is also made, but not the lining . Drawing the pattern just for the lining will be a bit problematic....
I hope I will be able to finish this "project" on Easter.

 

I plan on taking as many pictures of the whole process as I can. I have my pattern mostly sketched out I'm just waiting for my doll body to get here to make the actual pattern out. Tomorrow I'll be getting the muslin for the mock-up and hopefully the fabric if I can find what I'm looking for.

On another note my dolls kirtle is almost done, just need to finish up some sewing. I do all my stuff by hand so it takes a little while

 

Well, I finally managed to make a few pictures of the Florentine renaissance gown. I believe it might be 80 percent accurate....

 

It's beautiful. I like the accessories too - the belt and pouch are cute.

Teddy

 

I've been making historical costumes for many years and have a huge collection of reference books. Many are from Dover Publications. They publish inexpensive books on a wide variety of costuming subjects, including patterns for specific periods. Some are better than others. If you are looking for illustrations of historical costumes, footwear, hats and headdresses, for inspirationsl ideas, they have a series of three reprinted books by R Turner Wilcox which are very good.
The Mode in Costume: A Historical Survey with 202 Plates, by R. Turner Wilcox
The Mode in Footwear: A Historical Survey with 53 Plates, by R. Turner Wilcox
The Mode in Hats and Headdress: A Historical Survey with 198 Plates, by R. Turner Wilcox

One of my favourite pattern books which i've used extensively over the years, is Patterns for Theatrical Costumes, Garments, Trims, and Accessories from Ancient Egypt to 1915, by Katherine Strand Holkeboer. You can buy it on Amazon. This book does not have a lot of descriptions, or instructions, but for every historical period it has a full-page illustrations of a costume for both a man and woman. On the following page there are historically accurate patterns for that particular costume, with very short captions on how it was put together. This book is excellent for showing the correct cut of a costume. Finishing details are left up to the reader, so it's best if you have some sewing experience, or other books with more detailed written descriptions to give you further details.

 

I am so glad I found this thread as well. To be honest this is the exact reason why I was interested in the BJD hobby. I have also been making historical costumes for years and I always try to strive for accuracy. I thought it would be brilliant to buy a SD and practice new patterns and ideas on a smaller scale! When I get my doll I can finally get to it! So far I have been practicing on my American Girls dolls. Although they are cute, they are too childlike in proportions and don't work as well aesthetically.

 

I haven't got this book, so I could be wrong - but I'd be very very cautious about claiming that anything aimed at theatrical costume is historically accurate.

In general they will give you the silhouette of the period without the correct cut, sometimes without the correct fit or undergarments too.

On the other hand, resin doesn't squish like flesh does so, sometimes, theatre "cheats" are necessary to get the right look and fit on a doll.

I just requested a copy of this book from one of our other campus libraries (advantages of being a University Librarian) so I can give it a once over and see if it's worth buying for myself.

Teddy

 

I have that book, and I think it's great for reference and simple cutting of patterns. But it should be supplemented with more historical correct patterns (It do have some great pattern variations, like sleeves, that is often missing in other books)

I have collected alot of pattern books over the years (patterns of fashion 1-4, Patterns for Theatrical Costumes, The evolution of fashion, the tudor tailor, etc) and to many reference books (mostly medieval/tudor and childrens fashion) My favorite part is to look at the fashion plates/paintings/drawings in the reference books and then try and remake the pattern to fit exactly what I want

Im currently working on some tudor dresses, not the noble clothing but more of the middle classes

 

The back cover claims the costumes are "historically accurate" with "period Patterns". They look pretty good to me, and are definitely not your average "modern" clothes tweaked to look like period fashions. I don't know how they'd compare with actual museum specimens, but for making historical-style doll costumes they are extremely useful. For example, I never could figure out on my own how to make authentic-looking hanging sleeves, until I saw the patterns for "tippets".

 

I'll have to get my camera out and take pictures of my two dolls who went to Pennsic with me.

Maybe I'll even get around to hemming the gentleman's tunic that I put together as quickly as can be.

The lady's outfit is of nice thin soft wool, and laces up the front due to my being nervous about dressing her over her head. The gown is not really tight enough to actually need lacing. I made that last year, after the Pennsic doll meet.

This year, her consort got a lovely gold cotton sateen tunic, slightly longer than knee-length, which will belt up nicely. Once he gets a belt . . . . It still needs hemming, though, and I make no claim that cotton sateen is anything but a more modern fabric. Looks great on him, against his white skin.

I put in all the period-correct seams; they both have gussets under the arm and godets widening the skirts.

No fabric-waster work-arounds like Holkeboer shows. Despite her claims (or her publishers claims), the patterns are not particularly accurate. The silhouettes of the patterns are correct, but many internal seams are left out, and many of these seams will switch where the grain of the fabric runs and thence how the garment hangs.

Both the dolls I dressed are in the 60cm range, so fabric actually does drape.

ETA: After I get the clothes all done, I'm planning to raid this thread: http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?231781-Medieval-Bench and swipe the bench. Ok, not really, but if she was local to me, I'd be over all the time with dolls who needed to pose with/on the bench.

 

OOOH Pennsic!! I have always wanted to go but I live on the west coast and it's a little expensive to get out there :P And I agree, even though a publisher or author may claim that its patterns are accurate does not mean that they are! Even in the past 15 years there has been incredible research done on newly excavated garments that change our idea of what was previously thought to be accurate

 

OK, I have a copy of the book in front of me now and, while it's nowhere near as bad as I expected it to be, it's definately not historically accurate in the cut of the garments (not for the eras I know best at a any rate). An obvious tell to look for is the use of darts for periods before darts were in use (particularly bust darts), but ti's by no means the only mistake in the book.

Having said that, the patterns in this book are a very good basis for making doll costumes that will not look glaringly inaccurate.

Teddy

 

I'm so glad you thought so. I know the book isn't perfect, but I've found it very useful over the years for making "historical-looking" costumes for my dolls. I guess that's what I should have said in the first place. I feel that "historically-looking" is as close as it's possible to get with many periods when making costumes for many BJDs, since their hard bodies and breast-style won't look truly historically accurate without some serious body modifications. When I made OOAK art dolls in period-style clothing I made their bodies the correct period shape, but thinner in order to accommodate the thickness of the fabrics, so the final look would be correct. But with BJDs, at least the one I own, "historical-looking" is as close as I will ever be able to get.

 

Ain't that the truth.

I got the newer style Elfdoll body for my Soah in the hopes the raised/squished together bustline would work/look better for corseted styyles like Elizabethan or 18th century, and possibly for a Gothic Fitted Gown for late 14th and 15th Century styles, but I swapped back to the old style body and sold the new one on.

Teddy

 

I love the Elizabethan period! My dream is to one day make a reasonable facsimile of one (or more) of the gowns worn by Elizabeth I for my BJD.
When I was a lot younger I made Tudor & Elizabethan style costumes for my fashion dolls. Even attempted copies of The Ermine Portrait and the Ditchley Portrait on 18" porcelain dolls, plus made a OOAK art doll wearing as close a facsimile to the Armada Portrait as I could do. But those were sewn directly onto the dolls. To make a removable outfit for my BJD would be the real challenge. Not to mention all those hair adornments attached to a removable wig. Oh well, I guess it's good to have goals and aim high.

 

.

Just so long as you share pictures with us when you do it!!!

Teddy

 

I won a one-off Ruby at Volks Dolpa this summer.

She wants not "merely" a gown, but an entire wardrobe. The wardrobe of Isabella of York (alphabet soup omitted) who has been dressing herself fabulously in her 20 years in the SCA. Apparently she appeared at her first event in a lovely reproduction of one of Queen Elizabeth's portraits (with theatrical 'cheats'), and has only gotten better.

And this doll wants to dress like her.

Good thing Duchess Isabella has a website of her garb someplace.

 

Oh Ann! I'm not sure whether to congratulate you on the winning or commiserate with you over the amount of work you will have to do to realize her dreams!

Course, you might be able to get her to revise her expectations downward if you point out that my gang have more than a few unfisished outfits each so she should consider herself lucky if you finish one gown for her....

Teddy

 

Oh wow. I would love to see these costumes! More spam, please! I'd post the Tudor gown I made on my doll, but it's not period construction, nor fabric, so I figured I'd keep it with the costumes.

 

Hey, she's a one-off. She came with clothes.

Ok, the one outfit she has, which looks fabulous, is Not sufficient. I just hope I can keep her from having Duchess Isabella's entire wardrobe. She doesn't much resemble the real person, except she has the same cheekbones--& I'm not the only one who saw it.