How to avoid "eyes of the abyss"

your best bet would be to check out a few book on portrait photography,especially ones that focus on lighting the face.
the"abyss" eye syndrome doesn't just happen with dolls.
it is usually a result of a single, one directional light source, most often from above or from the side, that causes deep shadows in the face's eye socket. think highly dramatic, black & white horror movies of the 30s-50s.

one solution is to have what is called a seconday "fill" light source. in other words a softer light source that is usually coming from the opposite direction of the first light source, or from a slightly different angle than the first light source. doesn't have to be shining directly in the face to achieve this look.
the ambient light of the space you are taking the picture in can also make a diffrence: if the overall lighting is low and murky, you are more likely to
get deep shadows in the eye sockets. conversely if the light is ver, very bright( such as in the early afternoon) you will also get deep eye socket shadows.
best thing to do would be to experiment, by trial and error, with the amount of light you are using in a picture, and at what angles they are hitting the face. save your self some legwork by seeing what the books on photography say.

hope this helped.

m.a.

 

but the same thing is applicable to seeing them in real life, rather than a photograph.
if you have your doll in the harsh light of the sun in early afternoon you will get that dark eye look because the light will be hitting the high spots of the face(forehead, nosebridge,cheekbones) leaving the eye sockets, by contrast, as dark shadowy pools.

if you have then in a room that is dark , with a single strong, one -directional light source the same thing will happen.
having multiple light sources, of varying degrees of strenght in your doll display area will compensate for those dark, shadowy eyes.

another thing to keep in mind is the eyes you are using on your doll: if the iris/pupil of the eye takes up most of the eye opening , with little eye white, you will get that "abyss" eye look. if the eye color is very dark, or doesn't reflect much light, you would get that look.
this is particularly true of dolls with smaller eyes, or ones that are half closed.

picking out eyes with lighter /brighter eye color would help; or eyes that are better at picking up light, such as some of the better urethane eyes or glass eyes. allowing a bit more eye white to shoe on the sides of the iris would help, since the will show up better against the shadows in the eye socket.

those tips and paying close attention to how the dolls are lit, in real life as well as in photos, are really the most effective ways to eliminate the "abyss" look.
you and your dolls are always at the mercy of the light you are shown in;the portrait photography books would help figure out what the best lighting tricks for your dolls would be, even in everyday real life.

 

Adding to eye color and white to iris/pupil ratio, I thought it might be worthwhile to add that eye position also plays a part. If you place the eyes side glancing, for instance, you can get more of the white visible without changing a set of eyes that are dark in color or have larger irises, etc. My Iplehouse Asa is supposed to wear size 12mm eyes, and I have her in 14mm eyes that are a dark, dark gray glass. I had these same eyes in a doll that was meant to wear 14mm eyes, and who always had that "abyss" look when using them. My Asa looks really good in them though (at least I like them) because I always, always, always have them side glancing. Lol. Perhaps, not as versatile, but it works for me. ^_~

Examples:


So here we go. Yes, these eyes look absolutely black. No, the lighting in this photo was not great. Yes, the "black" color of the eyes mixes with the black lashes, and even out into the dark eye-shadow, but I think that hit of white to each side still makes them look like eyes and not just holes. Did it work? What do you think?

In contrast, here is the other doll (who I originally purchased the eyes for). These are the proper size for her, the lighting is much better, but there is definite "abyss" going on. At that time, I had the eyes positioned toward the center. You can still see a bit of the white...I dunno.


Don't know if that was helpful, but just something that came to mind. ^_^"

Edit: Oh, what I should add is that positioning the gray eyes side-glancing in my Asa really helps in person. ^_^
And on that note, color can't always save you either because I have a Theo with pale blue glass eyes that I have hair-pulling trouble trying get not to look like black blobs in photos. >.<

 

I think you answered your own question: all of the above. Photography is one thing..lighting and camera settings make a difference. Wiishu has pale violet eyes and even they can go very dark with the wrong camera settings. However, if the eyes are always too dark, then you need to look at those other options you yourself brought up. There are ways to (carefully) enlarge the eye socket to get the eye closer to the surface. You do run the risk of chipping the eyelid. It's a last resort to me, but I know a lot of people who have adjusted the socket itself. Sculpt makes a difference. Some have deeperset eyes than others. You might need to give up the chin tucked glower if you want the light to catch his/her eyes. Beyond that, you should look at the eyes themselves. Different sculpts have different needs...I think that's why the kids go through so many different eyes finding "just the right ones." Most eyes are pieces of white plastic with a flat section that has color added, then a clear lens applied atop. That lens catches the light, bounces it off the colored layer and sends it back out. Glass tends to do this more efficiently than acrylic. If you're dealing with deepset or small eyes, glass might help. All you can to is try. OTOH, eye shapes and sizes are only marginally standardized. Try other eyes, if you have them. Try a size smaller or a different brand. Heavy eyelashes are an immediate eye-killer, IMO. Clip those suckers apart. Shag them. Put a bit of glue on the line above them and press them up rather than out and over the eye. Really look at how they're interfering with the light transmission. The other thing to think about is, what is the EFFECT you want out of the eye. Maybe going a shade or two lighter than you think you want is the answer. Once shadowed, the lighter eyes will become dark and mysterious. Remember, anyone selling the eyes has photographed them outside the head with a bright light bringing out all their glorious detail. In the head, esp in a real time setting rather than photographic setup, you're going to be counting a lot more on bounce light, which is far softer.

Thought of something else. Hard, dark eye makeup will also grab and hold the light, darkening the entire area. Esp in photography, dark eyes in a pale face are going to go dark because the light sensor of the camera deals with the total amount of light entering the focus area. Getting detail with large pale areas and large dark areas is always going to be a problem. It takes lighting and often clever post processing to bring out the detail. Your eye works a lot like a camera light sensor. It's pupil will adjust to the total light coming in. If the face is pale, the pupil will close down making it harder for the eye to make out the detail in the dark areas.

Lots of rambling here to basically say...you already had the answer.

 

okay, i have read the tips here, and my doll has half- closed eyes. i adjusted the eye placement to try to compensate for the half closed and the low eye lashes, but am dangerously close to abyss eyes at best. even in my lightbox with two side lights and a very dim over head, they are still dark. the actual color of the eyes are a light grey, but i feel like the pupil sucks out the color when you look at them. i am reluctant to start buying eye set after eye set, and certainly dont want to adjust her eye lids if i can help it. i was thinking of getting a brighter shade (maybe a blue) with no pupil.

here is a picture of her, too. as you can see, the iris and pupil blend together and although she has white corners, i was really trying and just lucky. would eyes without a pupil help at all? ( i also want them to get that dreamy feeling. she is a doll full of longing, really).

 

I always have the abyss-eye problem in photos of my MNF Seorin. Sometimes I think his wig is partially to blame, but it doesn't cover his face that much.
I know that part of the issue is the direction of my light source, but I can't move my ceiling fan xD I also know that my bedroom is definitely NOT the best place for photos XD

So far I've only been shooting with the camera in my Galaxy S3, which also isn't the best for steady non-grainy photos...
I hate using the flash because he gets a real deer-in-the-headlights look and it almost totally washes his face out and makes his cute little nose disappear =(

One of the things I'm planning on doing is buying a reflector/diffuser from eBay; one of those big collapse-able ones that also come with gold, silver, white, and black surfaces. (I can post a link if you guys want). Problem is, I don't know what size to get for doll photography. I was thinking the smallest one, but my photographer friend was using the biggest one for my jewellery, so...maybe I'll just stick with the big one *shrug*

 

@Alchemist: I can only share my expirance with reflectors, and what someone told me about them: Your reflector should at least be as big as the things you photograf, bigger better, because it will reflect the light more even, and creat a more natural light.
I don't know what price they ar at, but a white cloth thensly pinnd on xy will do a good job too.
Golden gives a warm touch,
Silver a very cold one
White is the most natural light
Black?????-- absobs?
But the bigger the reflector, the more space around you, you'll need...and the more extra hands...

P.S.: if you can relocate any kind of desklamp and difuse the light with a white cloth (yes again) it will help too.

To the abyss eyes: I have seen people lighten up the pics with photoediting programs. Perhaps a reflectot or a difues light pointing directly at the face would help...
Perhaps your eyes are to far back and you need Eyes with dome and not flat ones....

 

I know what the different surfaces are for, and yes, the black is to absorb light.
You can also get stands to hold the reflector, so the extra hands isn't really an issue.

What does "thensly" mean? And what's an xy?

The eyes are domed, not flat. And no, they're not too far back.

I'm not a Photoshop wizard, and I also don't have a lot of time to mess around with editing photos aside from cropping. Besides, most of the correcting done in Photoshop can be done with the camera anyway. And no, I don't mean all the stupid filters in new digital cameras either.

 

Even outdoors, I often use fill flash. I shoot as I normally would, most often in aperture priority mode, but I pop the flash with typically anywhere from -0.5 to -1.5 flash exposure compensation. I use enough flash to fill light the eyes and areas shadowed by bangs and give nice specular highlights in the eyes, but not enough for the photo to look like a flash photo.

This example below has a tiny bit more flash strength in the right photo than I would normally use. What I would go with is in between these examples, but I wanted the example to be less subtle. When shooting from a tripod, you can also shoot the same shot with and without flash and then mix in post-processing, basically using areas from the flash photo in a Lightening mode photoshop layer to bring up dark areas. You can do the same thing with exposure bracketing... use an overexposed shot as source material for recovering shadowed areas.


Fill Flash Example by abs plastic, on Flickr

 

A high, overhead light will never give you a good result. It will cast dense shadows in an unflattering way. Yes, you can lift those shadows somewhat with a reflector. However, your most important light is your key light. This is the brightest light you are using (in your case, the overhead light). You need to be able to adjust the height and angle of this light to get the lights and shadows that will mold the three dimensions of your subject and avoid unflattering and distracting deep shadows. Once you have achieved that, then you can start fine tuning your shadows with a reflector or fill light. A fixed light won't allow you to do that. My suggestion is to abandon your overhead light and instead use a cheap desklamp with some form of diffusion. This will give you the control you need.

adam, that is a nice example of fill flash, something that I still need to have a go at. I have a Speedlight but, given that I always use continuous light in an indoor setting, I have never had enough incentive to get to grips with how to use it properly. Shame on me!

ETA: And, if you are considering using a reflector, I suggest you first try it out in ghetto mode before you buy. Reflectors aren't expensive, but they are even cheaper to make at home. I tend to use a sheet of white card or two for small subjects or head and shoulders shots, even though I have a reflector. If you want strong reflections, you can cover this with baking foil.

 

I posted these photos as an example of bounce flash on another forum post, but I think it applies here. In my experience, if using a hotshoe flash - bouncing off the ceiling, or at a slight upwards angle behind me has the best effects when trying to avoid those "abyss" eyes. Kadan is bad about getting them, since his eyes are just the right shade of not-too-dark-not-too-light blue. You can also just leave your flash at it's usual 90 degree angle and point it behind you and bounce off the wall behind you, sometimes this works.

Excuse the randomness in my poses and bad background, I was just playing around with my flash this particular day so I wasn't really expecting to use these images or even like them.



^^^Picture taken with hotshoe flash pointed upwards (turned behind me! even if pointing straight up, turn it 180 degrees. It makes a difference, trust me :P). Notice how everyone's eyes are perfectly clear, defined, and bright.



^^^^ Same pose, taken from the same angle, but the hotshoe flash was pointed towards the wall to my side, creating side-lighting. It does tend to soften the facial features making everybody look more subtle. This is great for some effects, but you need to watch the eyes. Notice how everyone's eyes are very dark and undefined.

Of course there may be flaws in my idea, but this is what has always helped with me trying to fix Kadan's "evil eye" as I call it XD so i pretty much agree with all of the above, mostly it depends on your lighting.
You can also use a reflector as well! I keep forgetting to use it so I don't have many photos taken with one, but a reflector can do so much justice.

Hope this helps some!

 

THIS I agree fullheartedly with homemade reflectors work JUST as good as bought ones. Of course if you're doing professional photography with clients, it will probably look better with a bought one, but for doing your own photography at home - just buy a white posterboard and cover one side with aluminum foil, leaving the other side plain white. When I took a small night class in photography this is what our professor told us all to do sometime.

 

You've basically just pointed out all the things I said I was already aware of xD But again, the situation described is NOT my permanent photo setup.

This was taken using my super-bendy adjustable LED desklamp from IKEA that was like $12. My diffuser was a kleenex that was kept in place with a hair elastic.
Pardon all the random crap in the background.


Chillin' Dylan by Alchemist's Fire, on Flickr

The ghetto reflector sounds like a good idea though, I'll have to play around with that. Good thing I just bought a bunch of white cardstock xDDD

 

Right. You implied that your current setup was unsatisfactory, but appeared to believe that there was nothing you could do about it ("I know that part of the issue is the direction of my light source, but I can't move my ceiling fan"). I was letting you know that there is a lot you can do about it.

No one is questioning your competency here. These threads are for people to talk about the difficulties they are experiencing and get some ideas on how to solve them. That is their purpose. Even the most experienced and proficient photographer needs fresh ideas at times.

And see how good that photo with the desk lamp is? That's the way to go.

The only advantage of a "proper" reflector is portability. They are wired and can be folded up into a little bag. They then open up with a rather surprising Ptwee! when yuo get them out. If you are shooting outdoors, that is easier than taking big bits of card with you. I don't, so mine sits in its little bag most of the time. Having bought various bit of "proper" equipment when I started out, because I thought it would help, I have now gone back to basics and enjoy the challenges of ghetto photogaphy. It forces you to really think about what you want and use your imagination and ingenuity to produce it. Fun in itself.

 

This is really helpful. I'm having that problem for the first time.

I just got a high end camera and set up and the photos are lovely but Juliette (the MNF Chloe i'm shooting)'s green eyes are just coming out black.

Literally no matter what I do.

ugh. Need to figure out fill flash.

 

the eye of abyss is always a problem with doll photos, i have a sleepy head girl and a girl with wide open eyes, and the sleepy head almost always get that problem of black holes on the face.

one way without tinkering with lighting is to 1) remove the eyelashes of the doll 2) change the eyes to lighter colour/higher dome/ silicon eyes that fit the eye well perfectly

the best method i found is still, tinkering with lighting. One is obviously adding moving the light source, if that doesnt work you could always add an eyelight or more light sources.

another method i found to deal with the "no i cant move the ceiling light" is to

just make your set up on the ground and photograph on the ground.

you will loose depth between background and foreground but the eyes will definitely sparkle.

 

I wouldn't think using a higher domed eye would help, but then again I'm not really well versed in the technicality of eyes... but both my AoD boy and my MNF shushu (with eyes modded to be more open) have super small narrow eyes, and whenever I try to use really high dome eyes in them the domes don't fit into the eye openings properly and create more gapping, and with the eyes pushed back from the opening more I end up with more abyss eyes.

For instance, the 14mm acrylic eyes I use in the shushu are very low dome and they fit her just fine; even when they're positioned to look straight ahead you can see a good enough amount of white and they look proportionate... But the 14mm glass eyes in the AoD are pretty high dome and I always have a hard time getting them to fit without having huge amounts of gapping which causes more dead, empty eyes because they're deeper in the face. Ironically in my icon, my shushu is wearing those glass eyes because another doll was wearing hers and they just look pure black...

I do agree that color and wigs are a huge contributor... the abyss eye problem probably wouldn't be as bad despite the gapping for those 14mm glass eyes in my AoD if they were a lighter color, but they're dark green so that's what contributes to it the most, and the shadow that the wig puts over his eyes only makes it worse.

So yeah like everyone else is saying I think the solutions are really just making sure you have eyes that fit your specific doll really well, maybe getting a lighter color if it doesn't mess anything up for the doll's character, and using good, well placed lighting.

 

This was very helpful! Thank you

 

Thank you so much guys ! All these tips are surely to come in handy ^^ i cant wait to try out what i just learned

 

I've noticed a marked improvement since moving over to eyes with smaller irises. The first pair of eyes I bought for her were Glastic Realistic 14mm glass eyes in Sea Green. They were already quite dark, but the irises were 8mm, and filled almost all of Alena's narrow eye openings! I've seen swapped to 13mm Eyeco soft glass eyes in A255 which are a lighter green, and the irises are only 6mm. It's really helped - more white around the eye is a real benefit.

A more reflective eye apparently helps too, as they catch the light more, but this isn't something I've personally looked into as I knew I wanted a very specific colour and a natural look for Alena.

One thing I have noticed though - Alena has very awkward eye wells. They're quite flat whereas eyes are obviously quite round, and round eyes just do not suit her at all. They disappear into her head entirely, unable to catch the light as the ball shape curves away from her narrow eye openings. She can't wear high dome eyes at all and half-ball or oval eyes are better. The Eyeco eyes are silicone so they're flexible and quite flat, they bend into her eye wells and fit flush to her resin. This has also really helped.

Silicone eyes seem to have smaller irises. If you prefer glass (which is more reflective in general I believe) KNIKLampwork on etsy does small iris eyes and low-dome eyes and isn't terribly pricey.

 

I have a doll with very beautiful eyes. They are just perfect for her character. However, I'm having trouble getting them to show up right in photos. Is there a way to let in more light so that they shine the way I wish them to?

she's one of the few dolls I have with wistful eyes. I have no idea how to photograph her so she doesn't look eyeless. Is there a tutorial somewhere.

If this post is in the wrong spot I apologize.

 

You might want to post this to Photography section (or maybe mods can move it). But here the conversation is mainly about face ups and other ways of modifying dolls.

As for the problem on hand, I have no ideas. ^^;

 

Try bouncing light into her eyes, using a white cardboard angled towards the eyes maybe that would work?

 

I have this problem too with one of my dolls. I use a reflector (or a "reflector" – its a cardboard covered with aluminium foil) and sometimes I have managed to solve the problem with it. I'm a newbie in photography.

And yes, there is a thread about this in the Photography section http://www.denofangels.com/forums/showthread.php?561044-How-to-avoid-quot-eyes-of-the-abyss-quot

 

Fill flash. You don't need to pop flash fully in the doll's face though, most cameras have flash exposure compensation that can be used to dial down the strength of the flash in order to "fill" shadows in an otherwise ambient light photo. I have shown an example in the photo section here, where there is a long discussion of this problem:

http://www.denofangels.com/forums/s...abyss-quot&p=10443820&viewfull=1#post10443820

 

Im having the same trouble with some of my dolls..

 

If you don't mind holding your camera with one hand, you can angle a small white cardboard/foamcore board (I've even used a paper dish!) to light up the eyes. One of those keychain-type low-power flashlights are good too. Alternatively, you can edit in post-production. I don't know what Photoshop calls it, but my program calls it Tone Adjustment - you can lighten dark, medium or light tones separately.

 

I've done this in LightRoom too: you can use the "Radial Filter" to create feathered ovals around the eyes, and then push up the shadows just for these regions. The key is checking off the "invert mask" checkbox so that the adjustments apply inside the ovals, rather than outside. This is very effective for pulling the eyes from the abyss, and takes only a minute or two.

 

Czechmix, looks as though you have the large-iris-plus-deep-eyewell-plus-heavy-lashes thing going on, that has been talked about earlier in the thread. So, yes, seconding what people have said here. Make sure your key (main) light is positioned so that light strikes the eye and is not blocked by the eyelid or lashes, use a small piece of white card to bounce more light up into the eye and/or brighten the eye in post processing.

I find the easiest way to selectively brighten eyes without affecting the tonal values in the rest of the image is to just use non-destructive dodging. So, in Photoshop, create a new layer. If you hold down ALT whilst clicking on the new layer button, a dialogue box will come up. Select soft light mode and check the box for "Fill with 50% grey" (or similar words). Click OK and you have your new layer. Now, on this grey layer in soft light mode, black paint will darken and white paint will lighten the image underneath. So, take a paintbrush and set your foreground colour to white. Reduce the paintbrush size and reduce the paint opacity to about 6%. Zoom in on the eyes and paint some white where there should be light. Don't overdo it, or it will look unnatural. If you have painted where you shouldn't, change your foreground colour to mid-grey (808080 in the palette dialogue box) and increase your opacity to 100% and paint out the bit you want to remove. This is the advantage of this method. You can reverse any changes by painting them back to grey.

Good luck!

 

Switching from acrylic to glass eyes helped immensely with one of my dolls (PKF Mio.) I was amazed at the difference. Her new eyes are just as dark as her old ones, but they catch the light like - well, eyes.

Before - this was actually an excellent shot for her acrylics. The sun was out but not on her face directly and the light was reflecting perfectly. I have some gorgeous shots of other dolls from the same shoot. However, her eyes still look like holes.
Paisley by ladymadrigal80, on Flickr

After - taken under far less than ideal conditions (indoors, at night.) This would never have worked with her acrylics.
ADAD 2015 - New by ladymadrigal80, on Flickr

I was honestly very surprised at the difference. I hadn't really expected it to matter if they were high-quality acrylic or glass.

Edit to add - they're 10mm eyes in both cases - with the same size iris in both. I know it doesn't look it.

 

Really helpful this thread!!! Thanks you all ^^