group shot question! (please help)

You should try to stagger them. Put some in front, some in back, that way theyre actually in a group and not a straight line. You could make a bench or something for the ones in back to sit on so that they're not hidden. It'll make it so that you have more space to work with.

 

I'd say pick a certain spot you know you're going to stand. Make them all face it. Take your time, before you start shooting away look though the camera and make sure they are all looking at you, or posed the way you want before you start clicking away.
There's nothing more annoying than finishing the shoot and then checking over the pictures to find you didn't nail even one of them!
Patience is my best advice, it's easy to get frustrated. Make sure the camera is focused right to the distance you are.
Hope that helps, see your new pictures in the gallery.

 

Use a tripod, maybe it can help with the blurry shots. Razzy's suggestion is probably best to give you more room, and jacobean is right in that taking your time can make all the difference. Can't want to see the new pictures!

 

I agree with Razzy about staggering and having them at different heights- my latest group shot photo:



While not perfect, it allowed me to fit them all into the shot- I put a box under the quilt, so they could be at different heights- I see you have some MSD's- maybe put them at the front leaning against your larger SD's? Also I don't think everyone has to be looking straight at the camera- sometimes it adds interest if one doll is doing something a bit different (see the surly tan fellow in the center) Your family is very cute btw!

 

Agree about having the heads at varying heights. Not only will it allow you to get more dolls in the picture for the space, it adds interest. Try and get the heads at as many different heights as you can.

Also, to increase interest, have a think about your composition. Imagine each face is a point and you want to outline a shape (triangle, square, circle, NOT straight line!) with those points. The eye can then travel from face to face in a more interesting way.

As for the blurries, also agree on the tripod, particularly if you are shooting in low light. Also, if you have some dolls close to and some further away, you will need a wide depth of field to get them all in focus. If your camera has the facility, set your aperture to at least f/8 for a small group.

Last thing is light. If you are using articificial light, getting them all lit well is a major pain in the bum. The ideal solution would be to use multiple lights. I suggest moving your light source around until you get as many faces nicely lit as you can. It is one that I still struggle with.

A square(ish) composition, wth heads at varying heights. And only one doll looking at the lens.

 

Just want to jump in and say, MadamMauMau, that's a freakin awesome shot! Such a great setup and I am just mesmerized. And thank you for the technicals. I have never been successful in doing group shots and I think I'm gonna give your recommendations a try!

 

You are welcome, norahyah. There are many useful sources of information on people photography that translate easily to doll photography. If you searched for something like "group portraits" you would come up with a hell of lot more than I could tell you. You won't need to use the "one shot for every member there is in the group and one for luck" rule, though, as no one is going to blink.

And do show us your results.

ETA: I Just tried out my own recommendation and searched for tips on group portraits. Erm, not terribly useful. Seeing as I am in the mood to do a little photo-thinking, I will have a plough around and see if I can find anything new and helpful and post it on here. I will learn as much as anyone.

ETA2: This one. It contains so many things that I would never have thought of. Very useful. http://www.picturecorrect.com/tips/setting-up-group-portraits/

 

MadamMauMau...that's one of the most beautiful shots I've seen on the site and an excellent analysis! I love the natural interactions between individuals. Also, because they're looking at different things, your eye travels to whatever they're looking at. Everything keeps the eye moving and noticing something different. I love how the little guy in the middle staring at the camera sucks us right in, and the minute you try to look away, there he is: the eyes that follow you as you move through the room. (Going to check that link as soon as I finish this post!)

If you don't mind, I'm going to comment on one thing I noticed, because it addresses one of the other Pesky Problems of a group shot. The little guy's reaching hand is a primary point of interest...and it's getting lost in the vest behind it. If you could lower gorgeous red-head just a bit (I love the angle on his arm so lowering him slightly w/b better than lowering the hand which would straighten out the arm), so that the hands reaching to each other were behind the dark red jacket, the interaction would show better. Right now, they're getting lost in the texture and tone of the gorgeous blond's vest. (I'm seeing a pattern here. My oh my, you have beautiful fellows in the house!) Another solution might be to straighten Gorgeous Blond's shoulders slightly, bringing the coat up behind the hands. There's another light confusion at the other intersection of hands, cute little guy's and hunky-horned guy's. I think it's horned guy's hand that I'm seeing bridging between the hands and little-guy's legs, but it's hard to sort out the elements, esp at this resolution, so the sweet little interaction of little guy's hand balancing on hunky-horned guy's hand is getting lost.

It's very possible these things didn't even show up until the resolution was taken down. (Another problem with group shots: resolution. Oi!) Something that might work if you noticed something like this post-photoshoot is to figure a way to simplify around the element to eliminate the confusion. In this case, you could clone (I think photoshop calls it stamping?) the shadowed side of the vest over onto the brighter side behind the hands which would raise the contrast between background and fore and help pop the hands out. (Or just select the hands, bring them up to their own layer and darken the area on the lower layer.) Blacking out that little bridge of finger would, I think, clarify that other little intersection.

But this is getting really picky! The main thing is, that beautiful interaction is there in the first place! The rest is gravy.

Interaction between/among dolls is a real key, IMO, whether it's a "candid" or setup-group shot. Even a "year book" group shot is more interesting if at least one person is doing something they shouldn't, whether it's the old rabbit ears behind someone's head, looking off at something other than the camera or tickling the doll in front of them. Thinking about doll pairings, whether or not they're seated beside each other, or if someone's having a feud with another...all those little "bits of business" liven up a group shot.

Not that I really know what I'm talking about, mind you. This is all based on my work on the graphic novel, i.e. drawn-stuff, not photographed. I haven't sufficient resin-kids to truly constitute a "group" yet! And I haven't done any real portrait-style photoshoots with the ones I've got. They're all story-oriented and I admit to being photographically slap-dash these days. I do all the things you aren't supposed to. Lighting? What's that? (Sigh...)

 

Vindalootoo, that is a very tight analysis. Thank you. I see you are as much a detail freak as I am. I agree with all your comments, which actually brings me to another important point about group photography. Take your time to sort out the many, many details. This one was taken at the end of a long shoot where I was adding one doll at a time and trying to make something of each grouping (here, a sequel to this) and I reached the point where I could no longer keep track of all the hands and arms and directions and so on and just wanted to get the shot done and move onto the next. And I have had that in other shots with a lot going on. eg this, much smaller, group shot, but with lots and lots of props



If you look, the poor little mouse's ears completely disappear against the waistcoat (and it the same waistcoat as caused the trouble up there. Do you think it might be cursed?). Because I was so focused on arranging the cakes and cups and all that so it didn't obscure important parts of the picture and led the eye to the main figure, I didn't even think to look at that. It could easily have been solved by giving the Hatter a lighter waistcoat, a mid-tone, so enough to contrast both with the pale skin of the mouse's body and his darker ears. But I just didn't see it until I had taken the picture and packed up all the stuff. And that was too late.

So, another tip is, really take the time to look arond all aspects of the picture, no matter how fed up you are with tweaking and re-arranging, and make sure there are no errors like that one. The more dolls and props you have, the longer you will need to spend checking. Perhaps go away from the set up for a few minutes and then come back with a fresh eye. You might as well take full advantage of the patience of dollies.

And a note on composition on that one, although the heads are almost lined up, the aim was for the overall shape to be triangular, with the two side heads being slightly lower than the centre (and focal) head and the clothes and bodies completing the triangle.

 

Thanks sooooo much for the links to the photoshoots! You truly do a phenomenal job, and it's fun knowing the background on your crew. And that same picture, in it's higher def version there, is clearer. As I suspected, the pixilation was part of the problem.

My Wiishu's stories are just chronicling him as he darts about the house. Nothing fancy at all.

I spent several years doing a graphic novel (see link in my sig), and I got to where I zeroed in on that kind of thing almost without thinking. It was a constant battle between telling a story and setting the images up so that they "sorted out." I haven't done it for years, but the instincts are pretty deeply embedded. I was held to be good at composition, but it was mostly instinct. I've never had training...I was a math and physics major! I find your thinking process setting up the photos really cool.

 

One of the best photos I've ever seen on DOA....absolutely amazing. Thanks for sharing.

 

Very helpful information, thank you

 

killer-chan: I'm not sure this is appropriate...you didn't really ask us to edit this photo, just for tips on what you might have done differently, but sometimes you can learn a lot by trying to make a photo that didn't work very well...at least work better. Playing with it on the computer helps you learn about composition. I took your pic above, selected and pasted the boys onto layers so I could arrange them in a way that makes some some visual flow. Note the three blonds make a triangle, as do the three brunettes with Mr Red...well, I mention him later... and the heads, with the clasped hands make a circle...recalling that whole idea of shapes and points of interest. Then I adjusted 'curves' and 'local tone mapping' on each of the layers (the image is very overexposed...not much left to work with, but it helped), and added a dark, textured background...in a circle. Any sort of geometric border automatically helps to organize an image. Not an elegant solution, but a fast and dirty one. I also, to help mask the selections (I wasn't exactly careful) and to help bring out the dark-haired boys' hair, did drop shadows in soft colors to help bring their hair out against the dark background. (The dark background also hide the selections and the fact that it is a composite.) Back or side lighting on dark hair can help keep the head from "falling into" a dark background. The drop shadow simulates this. I also did a dark drop shadow on cute red-head on the right to make him solidly in front of the lad behind him. I put cute red-haired guy on the right so that he's looking at something over the top of the camera...which makes you wonder what he's looking at. Had he been on the other side, it would appear that whatever he was looking at was completely outside the realm of the photo, and so send your eye out of the picture rather than back into it.

One simple note: Any time you've got a lot of dark in the image, you'll want to underexpose a bit. The camera is working on the total amount of light coming into the lens in order to set the auto exposure. If you set the exposure at, oh, -1, you'll get less overexposure on the faces. Your background might lose detail, but at least you'll have the faces. It's easier to bring detail up out of darker areas than to resurrect it from really light areas.

Anyway...here's the edited photo, FWIW. Hope it helps.

 

Sometimes, such as at a doll meet or convention, you might have the opportunity to take a group shot of a group over which you have absolutely no control of the subjects or environment. The photo below is one I took last week at a Boston BJD meet, where the dolls belonged to other people, the lighting was poor (dim overhead recessed CFLs) and the dolls are just sitting on a cafe table. But, the owners (Sephyelysian and Amet) did a fantastic job of arranging the dolls so that they look to be interacting naturally with each other, not simply lined up rank and file, and this made them an excellent candidate for a candid group shot.

I personally don't find "class photos" too interesting, so being able to stop down is not important. I'd much rather have the focus on one doll, so I will shoot with the lens wide open (in this case f/2.8) rather than crank up the ISO in attempt to stop down. The narrow depth of field can be used to specifically call out one doll as the subject, in this case the blue haired Rosette, with the added bonus of blurring out the busy surroundings. Having chosen her to be the subject, I positioned my camera where she as looking. The Seorin on the right is looking at the camera also, but this is just happenstance.


BJD Boston April Meet by abs plastic, on Flickr

 

killer-chan, that is so much better. What a difference. Next step? Watch your background for distractions. Hang a large piece of fabric up behind the dolls to block out all but your subject, or chose a boring spot to put them on. You need as much attention as possible on your points of interest, which is the dolls. Also, try getting down at the dolls'eye level. It makes them seem human sized, which is always fun.

I am not sure I understand the point about class photos, but thought I should clarify what is meant by "stopping down". It is not to do with depth of field, but to do with exposure. As Vindalootoo said, photographing a light doll against a dark background will lead to the doll being overexposed, because of the averaging out nature of metering. So, to get the right exposure for the doll's skintones, you need to underexpose slightly, by stopping down. In your photo, you have a background that is tonally similar to the dolls, so no exposure adjustment is needed. In fact, if anything, the background is slightly lighter and I might have tried stopping up one, to brighten the faces of the dolls, or turned them so that the light is falling on their faces, not the backs of their heads. If you wanted that backlit thing, another trick you could try is reflecting the light up into the faces by using a sheet (or two) or white paper, just out of shot. It is worth experimenting with this sort of thing as, unlike in the bad old days of film, nothing is wasted by a bit of time and some button clicking.

 

"Stopping down" always refers to setting a smaller-than-max aperture in your lens and with that comes increased depth of field as well as less exposure, the two are inseparable. If you wish to underexpose a portrait with respect to what your in-camera metering recommends (i.e. manual exposure compensation) only to control levels, you would normally do this by making a shorter-duration exposure (higher shutter speed), not by stopping down, unless you also deliberately desire increased depth of field. When shooting handheld, compensating by means of higher shutter speed has the added benefit of being less prone to camera shake blur.

What I was trying to communicate was the idea that stopping down in order to have all dolls in a group in acceptable focus, which you mentioned here...

...is not a universal requirement for a "good" group shot. Sometimes you might want this--for example if you're trying to show your collection in order to identify all the dolls--but if your goal is an interesting photograph in the artistic sense, you might want some subject-background separation, and a point of interest in your photo, so you would not stop down to get everything in focus. It depends on the look you are after.

 

Ah, I think we might have been talking at cross purposes. I thought you were referring to Vindalootoo's post where she was talking about exposure compensation (where stopping down will decrease exposure for light dolls on a dark background. What I tend to do to for exposure compensation) but you were talking specifically about depth of field.

Yes, I have no argument with that. You can isolate your point of interest by using a limited depth of field (perhaps not as wide as f/2.8 for most people's lenses as, for many, this is maximum aperture and will lead to the photo being quite soft). It isnt often used in group portraits, as the point is generally to feature everyone, but all rules are there to be broken. It can lead to a good shot, definitely.

I don't generally use it, but have done where I want to separate out the doll from the "background" figures, for a special effect or message.

 

killer-chan...you really don't need more room, you just need to create levels for your dolls. That will actually use a smaller "footprint." Consider, for instance, the photo we began with. Instead of piling the pillows behind them all, put a roll of something...even paper towels, in front of a single row of pillows. Put a sheet or some other fabric down over the pillows and roll, and sit your taller dolls on the roll, propped against the pillows and arrange the smaller dolls around their feet, using their legs as props. Make them interact in ways appropriate to their characters. You could even have one lying in front of the others. The more you can vary their heights, head angles and positions, the more interest your photo will have. Cluster them around a single chair, or a game board. Create a point of interest, a reason for the the picture in the first place.

I do everything with a simple point and click. Any photographer needs to learn how to compose a picture first. Strong composition will salvage a slightly out of focus photo. Blurring a badly composed picture will not improve it. By composition I mean exactly what I was talking about above: the placement of the elements, in this case, primarily, your dolls.

 

This is awesome!!

 

the hints and tips on this thread were really really useful when trying to get a pic of all my tinies together at the weekend (there are a lot of them!). The advice about levels and heights in particular - these little guys are sitting on piles of books wrapped in white paper towels! One of the things I didn't do was leave myself enough time, in particular to rearrange / reposition the dolls - this was shot in natural light from the window, and by the time it was all set up, there wasn't very long left with the light, doh (and the set up was too big to stay up for long, especially with an inquisitive cat!). Thanks to all those for the advice on this thread though - Madam MauMau and Vindalootoo in particular!

 

You did well! Look at that. Lots of different heights, with some bodies at different angles and arms doing interesting things. You can see everyone's face. That is an achievement in itself. You have some points of red scattered throughout, which gives it coherence. And good, triangular composition. All that variety gives the pictures some movement, where formal, sitting-in-a-line photos tend to be very static. And just imagine trying to get all those dolls sat in a line for a photo. Yoiks!

Bravo!

 

Thanks MadamMauMau! This thread was incredibly helpful! I did severely underestimate the length of time it would take to get the little guys set up though (and overestimated the amount of sunshine / natural daylight we might have this bank hol weekend! ) - I am counting being able to see all their little faces as a success this time round (alongside not knocking over my incredibly precarious tower of books! )...

 

Well, at least you weren't trying to shoot today. Nothing but rain and murk.

And I thought of something else to add on focus. As well as having a fairly small aperture (so fairly large depth of field) for group shots, focus on something that is not right at the front and not right at the back of the group. Something in the middle. It means that you will get more of your group in focus that way.

That's it, until I think of something else.

 

Thanks - I'll try that next time, alongside playing round with depth of field more generally (every wrinkle, fold and crease of the backdrop showed up in not-so-glorious detail, hence need for much post hoc blurring in Photoshop!). I guess it might help to have the backdrop further away? (But alas my tiny living room is quite restrictive on the distances front). Fingers crossed for another sunny weekend day!

 

Yes, apart from moving your subjects a good distance from your backdrop (which I can't do either, due to lack of space), the only other suggestion I can make is that you ensure your backdrop is absolutely immaculate. Spend time ironing it well, if is fabric. If it is paper, chuck it away and start again if it has gained some folds and creases from last time you used it. I buy rolls of poster paper and pretty much use a fresh length each time I get the camera out. The used one go to my daughters to use as scrap paper. Nothing wasted here.