The Dollshe side of the Dollshe/Dollmore copy issue *translated statement page 27*

O_O And I thought I'd be the only one to notice the similarities in someone's recent comparison....

 

ChocoMeijin, you are not alone...O_o

 

Agreed.

 

Thanks for posting this..... it is very interesting. It's so sad to think that people would just blatantly copy another persons creation!

Judy

 

Oh wow *ouch*

 

This is some crazy stuff right here. I mean, it's bad enough that Dollmore carries boots that look like copies of the Musedoll original chain boots (like Magic Tailor), and the swords they recently released look like the cheap total rip-offs the were floating around Ebay a while ago, but now this....

I want to see how this turns out. I really like the Model-M body, but I can see the similarities, myself. It will be interesting to see the buffer body as well, and a comparison of it. Perhaps that's why they're changing the body so soon, and have supposedly already altered the sculpt for the Kyle's released after the first run?

EDIT: The main reason this upsets me is that Dollmore refuses to cooperate or even talk about the matter; ignoring someone is no way to prove your creation is legitimate. If they would deal with this in an appropriate fashion, and be more willing to contact and share information, it wouldn't look so bad. Their evasive behaviour is very off-putting. If they feel they are falsely accused, then why do they avoid him? Why not talk it out, and try to show that what he accuses them of is wrong? I'm sure that once again, there are two sides to this, but it seems...a bit off, wouldn't you say?

 

Oh Good grief.

All one has to do is really look at the pictures and the differences are obvious.

It is a real shame that Kim Ki Young feels he has to do this. It'a a HUGE shame.

He never needed to lower himself in any way, His dolls are glorious, just as they are, and their market strong.

 

Gayle, when the insides of the dolls start to have the same markings on them, I would think Dollshe has the right to be concerned. =/
Certain things really do look similar; and if it was the case that Dollmore copied Dollshe's designs, I would expect something to be done about it.

 

It's interesting, but having seen the *complete* dolls next to each other, they do look different to me.

I am not a lawyer, though.... and if Dollshe wants this to be proved as a copy, they have to do it via a lawyer/court or elase it really is just one company's word against another.

 

Wait-the differences are obvious? I'm sorry, I'm in no way a Dollshe or a Model doll expert or fan-though I like the faces of boths-so I'm looking at this with a newcomers eye, and I can't see the obvious differences that are supposed to make Kyle's body anything else but a copy. I think it's totally Mr.Dollshe's right to take steps, this is copying-no matter how you look at it.

It's a shame because Kyle has a pretty face and there are lots of fans of him here on the board-who of course don't want to say their doll is a copy-but seriously..he's the same, even on the inside O.O

 

Yeah- the insides looking similar is the most compelling evidence here, but it should also be considered that there are only so many ways to set up moulds and put dolls together.

 

Some things look similar and some look different.

I wish there were some better pictures, somethings I don't even get what they are trying to point out...

 

I would like to translate that part for those who do not understand:


These are the areas where there's a bit of spots caved in. in the beginning when we were origionally making this, it's one spot we missed and did not clean up and make it smooth. this area is perfecly identical. While I"m taking these pictures and posting them next to each other, it's just making me so ANGRY. Dollmore's Lee Eun-Young, Do you still not realize your own mistake?


second part:


Here is the inside picture of the belly. You can see where when we made the origional mold and when we pressed the mold together and accidently made this bump, the dollmore's doll has it in the same position and same shape as well.



(above is loosely translated)

also he explains in detail how it's possible to do the "adding putti and cutting away technique" as he writes next to the pictures.

he also mentions that it's pretty ridiculous how even the hand's "line" is the same and says something along the lines of "i thought each human hand had different hand lines"

they got too long and didn't get to translate. I just wanted ppl to know this though.

 

The pictures seem to speak for themselves to me :/ I thought there was similarity, but it was just a passing glance. I never thought this issue would turn out to mean more bootlegs >_< It's getting stupid already.

 

Fair enough, I will research the inside markings.
That certainly could be "questionable".

However, the fact remains, that aside from a similar elbow joint, and general leaness, these boys are nothing alike.

I have held, moved and played with both. Dollmore has done something totally different, that allows a range of motion my beautiful Dollshe boys couldn't dream of.

And, a further point, copyright law in the US, states VERY clearly,that if an item is changed by 30%, it is considered an original item.

The range of motion in Kyle, clearly establishes that percentage.

I have no idea how Korean law views this, but my current understanding is that there are virtually NO copyright laws there. Especially with no written contract.

I am not saying that is right, or wrong. But, there is no legal case here. The differences between the two dolls is marked, and the posing ability alone, stamps it.

Again, I am sorry to see that this has come about. Dollmore has sold so many Dollshe dolls for Kim, with so many beautiful faceups. It is a HUGE shame that egos and fear are getting in the way here.

Kyle has NEVER been a threat to the Dollshe fanbase. And I would advise anyone that might think that, to join Houndcalling to see it for themselves, We are FIERCELY in love with our Dollshe boys

 

Pfffft.

Remember the Yukinojo vs 70cm DZ body similarities? Frankly, the DZ looked way more like a copy to me (from photos) than the new Model Boy does to DollShe bodies. That is something to be upset about.

The new Dollmore body is clearly not the same level.

Please check out Soom bodies compared to Delf bodies, or DoC bodies to BF Tiny Fairy bodies. You'll see similarities there, but nobody thinks they're copies.

Just because it's tall and lanky does not mean it's a rip-off of DollShe -___- DollShe is not going to always have its monopoly on 70cm dolls.

 

There may be a legal case, gayle, but that would be for lawyers to decide.

At teh moment, this is one company calling another company liars, and we know this cannot be resolved that way .

 

Oh dear. This is very...unnerving. ._.;

Certain aspects do indeed look very different,
but some of the similarities are obvious,
especially the markings on the interior.

I love the Model boy body,
but this has me a little concerned.

 

I completley agree with you Guide.

 

After all, these are ball jointed dolls. How many other ways to make such products? When you see all other including Volks joints, all are very similar.
There are huge debate going on Korean Kyle's page that I read a writer who said he majored in chemistry & an expert on resin making bjds, lining & thickness of each pieces are all different & he logically explained why they are not copy. Dollshe defenders had no more reponse to that & the debate ended. It is such a shame that Kim had to go this far, he not only came on Dollmore bulletin board & all other club & left insulting comments over Dollmore. I wish I knew more about resin terminology so I can explain better about what he said......

 

While I'm not ready to take any full sides yet, the one of the inside of the head with the similiar 'bubble' and the other piece with very similiar internal markings ( can't tell what it is right off unfortunately) makes me wonder a little bit. Yes, there are certainly differences (there HAS to be, obviously), but why would two different dolls have the same internal imperfections as another doll of an entirely different brand?

It's peculiar, admittedly.

By the way..would anyone that has access to a first-release Kyle and a 'revised' Kyle be so kind to eventually post a comparison shot, so we can note the changes made?

 

Also, few big BJD companies that we know, I won't mention their names are also on Dollmore side that Dollshe is totally overreacting on this issue.

 

"EDIT: The main reason this upsets me is that Dollmore refuses to cooperate or even talk about the matter; ignoring someone is no way to prove your creation is legitimate. If they would deal with this in an appropriate fashion, and be more willing to contact and share information, it wouldn't look so bad. Their evasive behaviour is very off-putting. If they feel they are falsely accused, then why do they avoid him? Why not talk it out, and try to show that what he accuses them of is wrong? I'm sure that once again, there are two sides to this, but it seems...a bit off, wouldn't you say?"


I HAVE to address this, though in doing so I might be over stepping the bounds of the confidences I have been given.

Dollmore did NOT start this. And Dollmore is cooperating with Dollshe on a level they actually shouldn't. Dollshe was GIVEN a Kyle to examine on his own terms. This is how he handles that?

Dollmore is being OVERLY gracious IMHO. If I was Eun Young, I would quit trying to be nice and just hire an atty. Clearly, Dollshe, or whoever "clued him in" to be worried ( I have my ideas) about Kyle,feels threatened (when there is NO need) and is being not so nice.

 

I know! You totally said exactly how I feel!
I hope this can be sorted out, I like both companies.

 

Yes- but those cases were taken to court and proven one way or another.

If this is proven a copy in a court of law, there will be no more arguements. But until then, it is just speculation.

 

Some designers actually design in flaws, such as bumps and roughness where it won't show to the naked eye to be able to prove copying. Kim Ki-Yong made it unintentionally, but it still proves a very valid point.

The outside may be slightly different, as I'm sure the Dollmore artist has added and extracted clay to make the copy more "his own" (just like my students changing words for their synonyms when they crib text from the 'net (hoping it will go unnoticed)), but the inside looks frightningly alike the DollShe body - even down to the flaws!

 

I hope there is a legal resolution, becuase otherwise this will go on forever. But I'm not going to take sides, becuase I honestly don;t know.

 

It looks like to me that perhaps Dollmore copied the mold as a starting point but made changes to make it not exact on the outside.

I'm sorry but I do see a lot of similiarities, I know that there are no complete originals in the BJD market as they all learn from each other but the markings inside are pretty scary.

As a professional Artist, I know what it's like to have your art ripped from you and have other people claim it to be thiers or they just copy it and say it's theirs, it makes me not to want to even post my art on the Internet anymore, I couldn't imagine what Mr. Dollshe feels, it may not be a big deal to you guys but I'm sure it is to Mr. Dollshe as he takes pride in his work. It's a horrible feeling. I personally would do what he is doing as I have done when my art get's ripped.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Gayle, just because Dollmore didn't start it DOES NOT mean it's not odd. If someone approached me saying I had copied something, I would be SURE to let them know in no uncertain terms that I hadn't if such was the case, and produce evidence. Like I also said, however, I am sure there are two sides to this as well.

The whole idea that it's not a copy based on it being "30% different" or whatever is debatable. This would be like saying if I took a doll with poor posability, sculpted a new head for it, and gave it a better range of motion I could call it my own.

I must say though, I'm not taking sides yet. Until a legal decision is made, I'll sit here and watch this debate unfold. Hopefully it will come to a more decisive conclusion than some other copying accusations in the past.

 

Thank you Guide for being such a sound voice of reason. See, I can be a reasonable person in a reasonable environment

 

LOL- I rarely doubt you, gayle...

 

This has actually moved past "speculation" as we now have the original artist coming forward with both written and photographic evidence. The man knows his own work.

The upper torso piece is just incredibly damning.

Thank you, sabriell and rukawagf.

 

i find this thread very intersting. i hope it goes for a long time. it is nice to see both sides. as long as it's not... too heated XD (oh my it's hot in here~~)

why erm.. you are welcome o.O from hot heated discussion all the way down to cold or cool ones, I believe this is very necessary news.

Also for everyone's note. when i wrote "ridiculous" it's because HE said it, not me XD he does bash dollmore several times on his article. as long as ppl understands.

 

I find it to be very sad, I do hope it gets settled soon but it may take a very long time. At least we can all be adult about it and discuss it rationally.

 

The chest and some other peices make me think it's original...

It's the same markings showing up INSIDE the joints that make me really suspicious. O_O

I hope this is sorted out. I love Dollmore, it'd be sad to see them get blackened.

 

Sabriell, I certainly hope it wouldn't come to that~! I have a great many Dollshe boys planned for the future, and I always look forward to new releases. ;o; To stop creating such mastepieces over this...my heart goes out to Kim Ki Young, I hope he is able to resolve this; he seems to have compiled some convincing evidence. And if it's not truly a copy, I hope Dollmore can be responsible and take care of this in an appropriate manner, and bring forth some evidence and a statement of their own.

 

well, the actual WAR is sad. And VERY serious news. One reason why even if it will cause drama, I decided to get involved and translate the top. Even say, yes i translated it. So that they know Sabrille is NOT making anything up. So that anyone wants proof, i can translate korean to english vice versa ON THE SPOT no problem.

I really love dollshe. that's no big news. but i was also in love with dollmore's faceup and the new body. These pictures convinved me that this MUST be said on DOA. IN ENGLISH for ppl to understand.

I just found intersting that ppl still had their opinions. Debates are always interesting to me. It's very interesting to hear both sides of how and what not it can or can't be copies.

 

here is a rough translation of Dollshe images. just refer...

 

Hmmm... I am confused... how did Dollmore copy Dollshe?

1. The were actually using a Dollshe doll and just modified it (sanding, adding bits and pieces here and there...)
2. They manufactured a mold using a Dollshe doll... used it to create a replica of a Dollshe doll using their own resin... then modified it as above.

I was wondering... cause I want to know how they managed to have the same exact depressions on the inside of the resin. How exactly do these things get produced, anyway? x_X

I am not taking any sides here, cause frankly I just don't know enough. :P

 

I agree with you Gayle... it seems it's the new trend to OMG it looks like what I did... oh I am so going to sue"

Fine let them take it to court and a juge will deliberate on it.

There's enough differences to make this model unique. as for the scaring inside? How did they get there? Could it be because they use the same place when casting the dolls? I can't reply to that.

But each time a new doll comes out there's a contraversy... THE JOINTS are the same... Please a lot of dolls share the same type of joints.

I didn't see Dollshe sue Volks over Yukinojo nor the SD cutes like Arashi with their multiple joints.

Let's all take a deep breath and relax people and let the proper autorities deal with the subject shall we?

 

Wow, thanks cherished for posting this, I had no idea those were Dollmore legs in the Dollshe body, I thought it was all Dollshe O_O

 

This is really, really upsetting. I am[was] a huge Dollmore fan.

And when even the uneven bumps inside the parts match....
I cannot defend the company I love. it's so heart breaking.

For me to make excuses and lie to myself just because I love Dollmore would not be right in any respect. I believed DZ 1/3 to be a copy on less evidence than this.

It sounds over dramatic I know, but I feel sorely betrayed. I trusted the product and always thought Dollmore had so much originality. their dolls always looked like no-one elses. so why did they do this??

 

Yikes! I'm no expert, but this does look to be pretty damning evidence in Dollshe's favour. I'm saddened, really: I like Dollmore as a company, and for them to have done something like this is incredibly disappointing. It'll be interesting to see how both sides go about working toward a settlement of some sort, and I hope everything can be reolved to Dollshe's satisfaction in the end.

 

ah sorry about that. shoulda mentioned. i thought it was obvious since the skin color is different... -.-;;; i should really realize ppl can't read korean.

yeah all the joints can be replaced it seems.

as dollmore fan.... it's really hard to defend them right now

 

Just to help the dollmore side prove their point, i'll also try my best to translate this article. i'm NO expert in chemistry though so it'd be hard. but i think it's necessary for a proper debate.

if you can give me the links or someone can, i'd appreciate.

 

Thankfully I have no emotional connection to either of these companies, and can see how obviously at least SOME of the Dollmore parts are copies of the Dollshe parts.
How some people can't see that amazes me. Those pictures are pretty damning.

 

Oh dear, I got an email earlier today about this very problem, and the photos.

I had hoped Dollshe Craft would say something first, but I guess you can pluck the photos from Cyworld.

As a mother knows her child....an artist knows his creation. Sabriell, I guess I stand corrected.....you were right.

 

If you can translate that, Rukawagf, that would be wonderful. I'd love to see what they had to say about all of this. In fact, I'd love to see anything from Dollmore officially regarding the matter. If anyone has information from them directly regarding this issue, please, feel free to present it.

 

scroll to bottom of page, I think there is some debate here
http://www.dollmore.com/shop/shopdetail.html?brandcode=082036000031&search=&sort=order2

 

well technically, i should go back and translate that other part down there.

he says some VERY important things.

erm i'm at work though XD and... i have to do real translating job (i'm translator/editor for a book company as my second job)

but this drama seems to demand me to work on it immediately ^^;;; i'll see what i can do.

however I really do want to see dollmore's side as well. since they say they got something so convincing it stopped everyone's debate in korea. that's pretty hard to do.

 

oh my gawd XD

the bottom of those pictures do not say anything but how to order, and he comes with what eyes and they'll do more photos

HOWEVER there's a HUGE dicussion down there... i mean erm... HUGE LONG LIST
o.O;;;;; it'll take me a looong time to translate them whoa....

 

Thanks for the translation, cherished. Never even realised the hands were at the same angles/poses.

 

Ohhh this is sooo terrible how could.... oh never mind .....(

 

Okies sorries guys. erm... after reading about carbon, degrees of temperature, silicon, face plating, glass, atoms, resin, several chemical terms....

meaning i need to find myself a dictionary before I translate the below of that link o.O anyone good in chemistry and know korean? coz i failed AP Chem in high school XD (C is a failure man)

 

I think this has been the same exact question I have been asking which nobody seems to have answered yet. The debate really all comes down to how they were manufactured... I think there lies to key to knowing whether a doll has been ILLEGALLY produced or not. If anyone can kindly explain the manufacturing process for these dolls, then it might help us crack the code of what they are debating about.

 

I'm still curious as to how chemistry has anything to do with sculpting. Maybe they are not technically "copies", but they may most certainly be resculpts; I just don't see how chemical properties and whatnot prove Dollmore's case. Some light on this subject would be great, and I'll be waiting patiently to see how this plays into this whole drama.

I do agree with you, Rosiel, it seems the manufacturing process is the key. However, what any of the technical aspects of the process have to do with "copying" remains to be seen.